Here’s the thread: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/24345496
users from meanwhileongrad are banned from dbzer0, so you won’t be able to interact (which you shouldn’t be doing anyway)
Here’s the thread: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/24345496
users from meanwhileongrad are banned from dbzer0, so you won’t be able to interact (which you shouldn’t be doing anyway)
Depending on how liberal is being used, i wouldn’t disagree. Objectively for many they are the more active threat. But fuck camping with ML who fantasize similar things. The ML our fascistic Epstein class are eagerly cribbing notes from.
In the west and US specifically we’ve had our language actively manipulated and poisoned. By ghouls like but not limited to Frank Luntz. In the US most that would call themselves liberal would actually be socially liberal. Not acolytes of economic liberalism, which is what liberal historically and still currently to a large geographic area still means. Socially liberal people aren’t an a problem, but also aren’t liberals. Economic Liberals like Musk, Trump etc are an active threat to everyone. Themselves included.
Why do you lump the entirety of the West with the US when it comes to liberalism? The US is hardly a liberal country. For example, in my country, what’s considered Liberal is considered conservative.
Liberalism outside the US is largely dominated by social liberalism, in which basic policies such as universal healthcare, a livable minimum wage, and a welfare state are taken as the baseline for governance. It’s not left or right, it’s standard. When people outside the US mention liberalism, they typically mean social liberalism, which the US severely lacks.
I believe most of the drama regarding liberalism v (insert here) stems from a US-defaultism perspective, which is wrong, since fuck the US. When I mention liberalism, I don’t mean whatever backwards shit the US has going on.
I’ve only seen this confusion around liberalism come up in lemmy. I think it’s due to tankie rhetoric poisoning the idea.
It’s the other way around as explained extensively.
General definitions & the historical development of liberalism are academic & largely accepted worldwide.
Some of the earliest liberal practices are found in the US Declaration of Independence, which predates the French revolution spreading the practice of liberal ideals throughout Europe. The US declaration pretty much rehashes core tenets of liberal philosophy
Note how capitalism isn’t mentioned anywhere: it’s nonessential. Capitalism predates & isn’t liberalism. Liberalism is moral & political philosophy, not an economic one.
The philosophy is a natural progression of humanist philosophies from the Renaissance through the Protestant Reformation & the Enlightenment that stress the importance of individuality, secular reasoning, & tolerance over dogma & subservience to unaccountable authority. To address unaccountable authority based on dogma & traditions, English & French philosophers defined legitimate authority based on humanist morality pretty much as expressed in the US declaration. They argued that political systems thrive better with limits & duties on authority & an adversarial system of institutional competition whether in separation of powers, adversarial law system with habeas corpus & right to jury trial, competitive elections, dialogue, or economic competition.
In time, goals shifted from addressing obstacles to individual freedom due to government to addressing obstacles due to the rest of society. Thus emerged the distinction between classical & modern liberalism:
As explained before, in the US, modern liberalism (which includes social liberalism & progressivism) is simply called liberalism whereas classical liberalism more closely corresponds to libertarianism.
I think US liberals & the rest of the world agree that modern liberalism ought to be standard.
Your link doesn’t work
I mentioned the US specifically. As a subsection of the west. Not lumping the west with it. That wasn’t the intention.
You mean social democracy? Liberalism/capitalisms natural tendencies all trend towards consolidation and oligarchy. And has only been held at bay via social democracy. It’s why they (the US specifically) have overthrown other democracies that wouldn’t side with them. And eventually turned to cannibalizing and erasing their own democracy. As it gets in their way.
But yes, the US defaultism as you put it was getting at. It causes a lot of misunderstanding and needless drama.
glad we could sort that one out then. I fucking hate the US and their defaultism on everything.
We all have to keep mindful of our own unique experiences and bias. Not just assume everyone should know blank. It’s part of why traveling and meeting other people helps reduce bigotry. Reminds us of just how little we know.
yeah absolutely. it’s why i go out of my way to interact with many who I disagree with, neo-nazis, tankies, islamic extremists