I think you may have glossed over the word “drivers” there. The word was used to describe people ignoring traffic regulations, both while driving and walking.
I didn’t “blame” anyone, I just said it was ignorant, as is the literal definition of the word, according to the person I replied to.
Society has this super weird position that there can only ever be one person or entity to blame. You can blame a pedestrian for ignorantly wandering into traffic while simultaneously blaming the driver for being inattentive.
To be clear, your position is that “stupid person walked into the traffic” and “it’s that person fault” are two different things? You grasp the tiniest of straws. (You accused me of ad hominem, look up motte-and-bailey)
But even beside that you miss the point entirely. What I tried yo explain you there was that there was no “into the traffic” there. People didn’t “wonder” on the streets. They were just there. Like today they are on the sidewalk. People were the rule cars were the exception. If electric scooter run into the pedestrian, you don’t defoult into “the pedestrian was likely ignorant”. Imagine scooter manufacturers start to call people involved in the accidents like this something like “loonies” or “zombies” until the legislation that people can walk only directly beside the curb is passed… And 10 years from that somene like you will argue “but skipping across the entire sidewalk is ignorant and careless. Term loonie sounds accurate to me”.
What I tried yo explain you there was that there was no “into the traffic” there. People didn’t “wonder” on the streets.
That is not what you said. What you said was, and I quote “You think: people who wonder on the street are to blame if they are hit.”
If people are not “wandering into the street” then they are not “jaywalking”, are they?
People were the rule cars were the exception.
It doesn’t matter which one is which. The one that is “jay” is the one doing so without any regard for the rules, endangering themselves and other road users.
Imagine scooter manufacturers start to call people involved in the accidents like this something like “loonies” or “zombies”
That would be a completely different use of the word, since neither of these words mean “someone who operates scooters carelessly and without regard for the rules”, as jaywalking does.
You will never convince anyone by gaslighting them into believing you didn’t say things you did (especially where it’s clearly documented) and continually pursuing strawman arguments.
Yes, those are not the same and that’s exactly the point.
2nd one is me trying to understand your perspective and assumimg that you asses the irresponsibility of wondering into trafic must comr from the modern perspective in accordance with modern standards (existing traffic laws and road culture) - reality after PR campaign.
1st one is pointing out that that traffic laws and road culture were different back then, and.we.can’t even talk about “wondering into” traffic anymore than we could talk about “wondering into sidewalk” - reality before PR campaign.
Those two not being the same is the result of PR campaign changing one state of round culture to another by stigmatizing being a pedestrian on the street. That’s the problem we are discussing.
Come on.
(Man, I’m regretting biting after it was obvious this conversation is going nowhere. This time I’m truly out. Feel free to have your last word, but - hopefully - I’ll not address it)
You could blame the pedestrian, but it would be incorrect. A pedestrian is more vulnerable and harmless than a vehicle, and arguably has more of a reason to be traveling through the downdown of a city on foot than the vehicle does.
When cars began taking over streets making it dangerous for the people there, and auto makers lobbied to make cities more car centric, it made the cities way worse.
Imagine for a moment if in the model t days, the dangerous vehicle was held responsible and regulated instead of the people walking. We would have walkable cities today and cars wouldn’t be allowed to take over.
We are not talking about individual blame, we’re upset at the historical choices that led to a car centric landscape.
You could blame the pedestrian, but it would be incorrect.
How would you know that when I haven’t even specified any circumstances? Unless your intention is to suggest there are no circumstances in which a pedestrian is even partially to blame?
If a pedestrian sprints out from behind a wall into traffic moving 70MPH, that’s 100% the driver’s fault for hitting them? This is the logic you want to go with?
A pedestrian is more vulnerable and harmless than a vehicle
What does that have to do with whose responsibility it is!?
and arguably has more of a reason to be traveling through the downdown of a city on foot than the vehicle does
No they don’t? And why are we downtown?
Imagine for a moment if in the model t days, the dangerous vehicle was held responsible and regulated instead of the people walking.
You mean instead of a world where we hold responsible the people who are actually responsible?
We would have walkable cities today and cars wouldn’t be allowed to take over.
No, we would just have more criminals. The only way we have walkable cities is by banning cars.
We are not talking about individual blame, we’re upset at the historical choices that led to a car centric landscape.
I know you want to talk about that. I agree with you. But it is, in fact, not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the supposed use of the word “jaywalking” implying that all pedestrians are to blame for collisions.
The time is 1900. There are no traffic laws. A car almost runs into a dude.
If you say, “that car is dangerous” you are correct, and society tends towards making laws that protect pedestrians.
If you say “that person is jaywalking” you are framing the situation such that the car has more of a right to be there than the person. Maybe you think that cars are modern. “The wave of the future.” This is the incorrect framing. We have seen how much of a mistake this was.
Some places like the Netherlands have been undoing the damage, rectifying the error in urban design.
We are downtown because that was the context in which the term “jaywalking” was invented. To kick pedestrians out of their own downtown.
We’re talking about the supposed use of the word “jaywalking” implying that all pedestrians are to blame for collisions
Maybe that’s what you’re talking about. The rest of us are talking about how “jaywalking” was coined to make a normal behavior (people walking around their city) seem wrong. That is why so many people are telling you to listen to what they’re saying.
Can’t help but notice you declined to answer any of my questions.
If you say “that person is jaywalking” you are framing the situation such that the car has more of a right to be there than the person.
Incorrect. You are framing the situation such that the jaywalker is endangering themselves and other road users by ignoring the rules of the road that keep everyone safe. “Jaywalking” does not refer to pedestrians as a whole, only the people committing the act of jaywalking.
Some places like the Netherlands have been undoing the damage, rectifying the error in urban design.
Wonderful! Good for them!
We are downtown because that was the context in which the term “jaywalking” was invented.
Okay, so “jaywalking” only applies “downtown”. Presumably you can provide a source for this?
The rest of us are talking about how “jaywalking” was coined to make a normal behavior (people walking around their city) seem wrong
That is not what you’re talking about. You’re talking about automotive propaganda and the history of urban infrastructure. Nothing about the term itself or how it was misused or appropriated to mean something other than exactly what it does.
That is why so many people are telling you to listen to what they’re saying.
They keep saying things that I already know. Strawman topics that I agree with and don’t require further discussion.
You are framing the situation such that the jaywalker is endangering themselves and other road users by ignoring the rules of the road that keep everyone safe. “Jaywalking” does not refer to pedestrians as a whole, only the people committing the act of jaywalking.
This is simply miskaken. At the time the term was invented, the streets were for pedestrians. There were natually no laws or norms saying people shouldnt walk in the street. Car companies waged a campaign to kick pedestrians out. If we can’t agree on this basic fact, I am not sure how to continue the discussion.
There were natually no laws or norms saying people shouldnt walk in the street
There aren’t any today either. But there are regulations about where and when people should walk in the street. Violations of these regulations (not literally just moving your feet back and forth) are known as jaywalking.
To be clear, your position is that “stupid person walked into the traffic” and “it’s that person fault” are two different things? You grasp the tiniest of straws. (You accused me of ad hominem, look up motte-and-bailey)
But even beside that you miss the point entirely. What I tried yo explain you there was that there was no “into the traffic” there. People didn’t “wonder” on the streets. They were just there. Like today they are on the sidewalk. People were the rule cars were the exception. If electric scooter run into the pedestrian, you don’t defoult into “the pedestrian was likely ignorant”. Imagine scooter manufacturers start to call people involved in the accidents like this something like “loonies” or “zombies” until the legislation that people can walk only directly beside the curb is passed… And 10 years from that somene like you will argue “but skipping across the entire sidewalk is ignorant and careless. Term loonie sounds accurate to me”.
Absolutely not. Those are enormous straws…
That is not what you said. What you said was, and I quote “You think: people who wonder on the street are to blame if they are hit.”
If people are not “wandering into the street” then they are not “jaywalking”, are they?
It doesn’t matter which one is which. The one that is “jay” is the one doing so without any regard for the rules, endangering themselves and other road users.
That would be a completely different use of the word, since neither of these words mean “someone who operates scooters carelessly and without regard for the rules”, as jaywalking does.
We are clearly not moving toward convincing eachother to anything even a bit, so let’s stop here. Have a great day, Ulrich.
You will never convince anyone by gaslighting them into believing you didn’t say things you did (especially where it’s clearly documented) and continually pursuing strawman arguments.
Hmm? Now I’m honestly confused. What is the thing I said that I claim I didn’t say?
One of these things is not like the other.
Yes, those are not the same and that’s exactly the point.
2nd one is me trying to understand your perspective and assumimg that you asses the irresponsibility of wondering into trafic must comr from the modern perspective in accordance with modern standards (existing traffic laws and road culture) - reality after PR campaign.
1st one is pointing out that that traffic laws and road culture were different back then, and.we.can’t even talk about “wondering into” traffic anymore than we could talk about “wondering into sidewalk” - reality before PR campaign.
Those two not being the same is the result of PR campaign changing one state of round culture to another by stigmatizing being a pedestrian on the street. That’s the problem we are discussing.
Come on.
(Man, I’m regretting biting after it was obvious this conversation is going nowhere. This time I’m truly out. Feel free to have your last word, but - hopefully - I’ll not address it)
When cars began taking over streets making it dangerous for the people there, and auto makers lobbied to make cities more car centric, it made the cities way worse.
Imagine for a moment if in the model t days, the dangerous vehicle was held responsible and regulated instead of the people walking. We would have walkable cities today and cars wouldn’t be allowed to take over.
We are not talking about individual blame, we’re upset at the historical choices that led to a car centric landscape.
How would you know that when I haven’t even specified any circumstances? Unless your intention is to suggest there are no circumstances in which a pedestrian is even partially to blame?
If a pedestrian sprints out from behind a wall into traffic moving 70MPH, that’s 100% the driver’s fault for hitting them? This is the logic you want to go with?
What does that have to do with whose responsibility it is!?
No they don’t? And why are we downtown?
You mean instead of a world where we hold responsible the people who are actually responsible?
No, we would just have more criminals. The only way we have walkable cities is by banning cars.
I know you want to talk about that. I agree with you. But it is, in fact, not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the supposed use of the word “jaywalking” implying that all pedestrians are to blame for collisions.
The time is 1900. There are no traffic laws. A car almost runs into a dude.
If you say, “that car is dangerous” you are correct, and society tends towards making laws that protect pedestrians.
If you say “that person is jaywalking” you are framing the situation such that the car has more of a right to be there than the person. Maybe you think that cars are modern. “The wave of the future.” This is the incorrect framing. We have seen how much of a mistake this was.
Some places like the Netherlands have been undoing the damage, rectifying the error in urban design.
We are downtown because that was the context in which the term “jaywalking” was invented. To kick pedestrians out of their own downtown.
Maybe that’s what you’re talking about. The rest of us are talking about how “jaywalking” was coined to make a normal behavior (people walking around their city) seem wrong. That is why so many people are telling you to listen to what they’re saying.
Can’t help but notice you declined to answer any of my questions.
Incorrect. You are framing the situation such that the jaywalker is endangering themselves and other road users by ignoring the rules of the road that keep everyone safe. “Jaywalking” does not refer to pedestrians as a whole, only the people committing the act of jaywalking.
Wonderful! Good for them!
Okay, so “jaywalking” only applies “downtown”. Presumably you can provide a source for this?
That is not what you’re talking about. You’re talking about automotive propaganda and the history of urban infrastructure. Nothing about the term itself or how it was misused or appropriated to mean something other than exactly what it does.
They keep saying things that I already know. Strawman topics that I agree with and don’t require further discussion.
This is simply miskaken. At the time the term was invented, the streets were for pedestrians. There were natually no laws or norms saying people shouldnt walk in the street. Car companies waged a campaign to kick pedestrians out. If we can’t agree on this basic fact, I am not sure how to continue the discussion.
References: https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history
https://www.salon.com/2015/08/20/the_secret_history_of_jaywalking_the_disturbing_reason_it_was_outlawed_and_why_we_should_lift_the_ban/
https://missedhistory.com/1800/lobbying-trick-blamed-pedestrians-inventing-jaywalking/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/03/13/the-classist-racist-history-of-jaywalking/
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797
There aren’t any today either. But there are regulations about where and when people should walk in the street. Violations of these regulations (not literally just moving your feet back and forth) are known as jaywalking.
There are laws. They are called the right of way. I will not argue further with someone who is unable to incorporate new information.