Which countries strongly support my values?

Angel(she/they)@lemmy.blahaj.zone · 1 day ago

Which countries strongly support my values?

Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml · 13 hours ago

You can’t say NATO is imperialist due to soft power, trade and structural dependence while claiming China isn’t imperialist because it doesn’t use classical political domination (like I argued for the EU). Either you include economic hierarchy and asymmetry or you don’t.

I say NATO is a tool of imperialism because NATO countries super-exploit the global south for super-profits, and practice unequal exchange, establish hegemony, etc. This super-exploitation via finance-capital is what imperialism is, period. NATO is merely the hard power to protect it. China doesn’t underdevelop the countries it trades with, nor does it practice unequal exchange, simple as that.

“Underdevelopment traps” are exactly what China is trying to create. They don’t eliminate dependencies, but reorganise it around Chinese capital, logistics, standards and demand. That’s still an unequal relationship, only replacing Western capital with Chinese capital.

You can claim this, but it has no basis in reality. Western countries have been trying for decades to project their sins onto China to scare global south countries away from BRI, BRICS, etc. China isn’t developing hegemony, and again, doesn’t practice unequal exchange nor financial plunder. China forgives countless loans, its interests are towards multipolarity and ending US (and by extension European) hegemony.

I won’t discuss this definition of imperialism further as you clearly have an agenda which paints all “Western” countries as imperialists while only applying the definitions of imperialism to them, but not the rest of the world. Feel free to write about inequalities and exploitation with me, but please try to not be partisan.

My agenda is that I’m a communist, seeking an end to imperialism. If we apply the definitions of imperialism equally, globally, then it’s quite simple: the US Empire is the world empire, with Europe and other "westernized* countries like Israel, Australia, etc as vassals. China is not a participant in imperialism, but instead is undermining it, and this is clear because countries that have been underdeveloped for centuries under European domination are flourishing via mutual cooperation with China. The forces are different and thus the results are different.

I somewhat agreed to some points you made, e.g. the exploitation of the global south being a bad thing, and much of EUs wealth being based on economic domination, but your rhetoric shows that this is where our common ground starts and ends at the same time.

Westerners do tend to accept personal guilt, but tend to not accept that other countries can simply be better. This kind of western exceptionalism is an aspect of western cultural hegemony, but as material reality continues to develop the contradictions make themselves more naked and obvious.

’m not saying EU and NATO are saints, especially since the EU does atrocious things at our borders, and supports war and famine, but I won’t go down the rabbit hole further arguing selective definitions of imperialism. This is simply making ideological exceptions for the sake of the argument.

I’m not selective with how I apply the definition of imperialism, I’m honest with it, which is why I can say that the west is imperialist while China is not. I don’t argue for the sake of argument, but because I wish to end imperialism forever and establish socialism (as China has already done).

Helix 🧬@feddit.org · 13 hours ago

China isn’t developing hegemony, and again, doesn’t practice unequal exchange nor financial plunder. China forgives countless loans, its interests are towards multipolarity and ending US (and by extension European) hegemony.

You can claim this, but it has no basis in reality. Can you prove it?

Westerners do tend to accept personal guilt, but tend to not accept that other countries can simply be better. This kind of western exceptionalism is an aspect of western cultural hegemony, but as material reality continues to develop the contradictions make themselves more naked and obvious.

You’re claiming I’m exceptionalist while being exceptionalist yourself? That’s quite the stretch. I simply said G20 countries all employ some degree of anti social and anti human practices without exceptions. Maybe focus and methods differ but in the end it comes down to keep the majority of people down for the super rich to profit.

I never said any of this is less bad just because “Western” countries do it. The only one claiming there’s exceptions and that one country is somehow a bastion against oppression in this thread is you.

end imperialism forever and establish socialism (as China has already done).

OK, lol, should’ve read this first before answering. No, they haven’t. China just replicates the power structures and elitism in a slightly different flavor (the CPC instead of e.g. US Democrats/Republicans).

Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml · 13 hours ago

You can claim this, but it has no basis in reality. Can you prove it?

You made the unbacked claim of “Chinese imperialism.” The onus is on you to prove it. However, it’s trivial to find evidence backing up China’s anti-imperialist role:

And many, many more. It’s no secret that imperialists have been trying to smear China into being “no better” than the west, but the reality on the ground is that partnering with China results in mutual development and cooperation, while partnering with the west results in stripped autonomy, underdevelopment, and exploitation.

You’re claiming I’m exceptionalist while being exceptionalist yourself? That’s quite the stretch. I simply said G20 countries all employ some degree of anti social and anti human practices without exceptions. Maybe focus and methods differ but in the end it comes down to keep the majority of people down for the super rich to profit.

I never said any of this is less bad just because “Western” countries do it. The only one claiming there’s exceptions and that one country is somehow a bastion against oppression in this thread is you.

The key difference is that China is socialist, isn’t dominated by financial capital, and isn’t a part of the global north that has established imperialism and perpetuates it to this day. China’s wealth comes from China, not from plunder.

OK, lol, should’ve read this first before answering. No, they haven’t. China just replicates the power structures and elitism in a slightly different flavor (the CPC instead of e.g. US Democrats/Republicans).

I already knew you weren’t a socialist due to the way you see imperialism, but this is incredibly far from the truth. The working class is in control of the state, and public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, including finance. You don’t have to trust the government, you can trust the people themselves. The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:

China does have billionaires, yes. China is in the developing stages of socialism. Between capitalism, which is characterized by private ownership being the principle aspect of the economy and the capitalists in control of the state, and communism, characterized by full collectivization of production and distribution devoid of classes, is socialism, where public ownership is principle and the working classes in control. China in particular is working its way out of the initial stages of socialism:

The reason China has billionaires is because China has private property, and the reason it has private property is because of 2 major factors: the world economy is still dominated by the US empire, and because you cannot simply abolish private property at the stroke of a pen. China tried that already. The Gang of Four tried to dogmatically force a publicly owned and planned economy when the infrastructure best suited to that hadn’t been laid out by markets, and as a consequence growth was positive but highly unstable.

Why does it matter that the US Empire controls the world economy? Because as capitalism monopolizes, it is compelled to expand outward in order to fight falling rates of profit by raising absolute profits. The merging of bank and industrial capital into finance capital leads to export of capital, ie outsourcing. This process allows super-exploitation for super-profits, and is known as imperialism.

In the People’s Republic of China, under Mao and later the Gang of Four, growth was overall positive but was unstable. The centrally planned economy had brought great benefits in many areas, but because the productive forces themselves were underdeveloped, economic growth wasn’t steady. There began to be discussion and division in the party, until Deng Xiapoing’s faction pushing for Reform and Opening Up won out, and growth was stabilized:

Deng’s plan was to introduce market reforms, localized around Special Economic Zones, while maintaining full control over the principle aspects of the economy. Limited private capital would be introduced, especially by luring in foreign investors, such as the US, pivoting from more isolationist positions into one fully immersed in the global marketplace. As the small and medium firms grow into large firms, the state exerts more control and subsumes them more into the public sector. This was a gamble, but unlike what happened to the USSR, this was done in a controlled manner that ended up not undermining the socialist system overall.

China’s rapidly improving productive forces and cheap labor ended up being an irresistable match for US financial capital, even though the CPC maintained full sovereignty. This is in stark contrast to how the global north traditionally acts imperialistically, because it relies on financial and millitant dominance of the global south. This is why there is a “love/hate” relationship between the US Empire and PRC, the US wants more freedom for capital movement while the CPC is maintaining dominance.

Fast-forward to today, and the benefits of the CPC’s gamble are paying off. The US Empire is de-industrializing, while China is a productive super-power. The CPC has managed to maintain full control, and while there are neoliberals in China pushing for more liberalization now, the path to exerting more socialization is also open, and the economy is still socialist. It is the job of the CPC to continue building up the productive forces, while gradually winning back more of the benefits the working class enjoyed under the previous era, developing to higher and higher stages of socialism.

In doing this, China has presented itself to the global south as an alternative to the unequal exchange the global north does with the global south, which is accelerating the development of the global south. China is taking a more indirect method of undermining global imperialism than, say, the USSR, but its been remarkably effective at uplifting the global working classes, especially in China but also in the global south.