I hope this post fits the content and format of this community, if not I’m sorry.
I’m just incredibly shocked by the fact that an admin of the instance lemmy.dbzer0.com is openly supporting Hamas.
Here’s a link to the comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/61235665/23634712
I’m just curious -
Starting with the clear and obvious provision that Israel has stolen Palestinian land, and has been killing Palestinians for over half a century -
What is the “right” way for Palestinians to resist Israel? How should they fight back? Please, paint a picture for me in a way that shows how they can effectively stop Israel from killing more people, and stealing ever more land, until the Palestinians have been completely wiped out.
Consider, while you’re at it, that the US has been arming Israel for decades, and has been using it’s own military force to prevent other countries in the region from holding Israel to account. Sure, Iran could do something, except that the US has sold Israel the arms and technology to stop Iranian retaliation, and has also had Iran under embargo for so long that Iran is a disaster. (Not saying that the ayatollah is good, but maybe if the US hadn’t been propping up the shah, we wouldn’t have a religious nutter in charge.)
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don’t rape, don’t carry out terrorism on innocent civilians
The right way was using the internet and global attention, which Palestine was doing, raising awareness of how they are suffering and gaining sympathy for it. They should’ve adopted more Western ideals, or maybe liberalism, encourage foreigners to come and stay. The West Bank and Gaza near Rafah were also doing decently well in terms of growth, labelling itself as a trendy tourist destination.
Unfortunately, Hamas decided that raping women and killing innocent civilians was a better method of resistance, even going so far as to film themselves carrying out the massacre and taking hostages – Which incurred the Israeli military and ended up with Gaza being turned to rubble. Sure, people are much more aware of Palestine now, but only the most radical of “progressives” think Israel can be defeated and that Palestine can do no wrong. These people are vocal minorities and hold no power.
The whole relationship between Israel and the US isn’t as buddy-buddy as people think it is. Israel previously attacked US forces and regularly threatens US personnel. No clue what goes on behind the scenes, but clearly Israel has something major on the US, or the US sees Israel as a base for Middle-East operations and considers the chaos that comes with it as a necessary sacrifice. Or maybe it’s both, or maybe it’s neither.
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He’s basically using an utterly irrational argument to defend an already 100% confirmed terrorist group!
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There’s an obsession with ‘If this side is bad, the other side must be good’ nowadays that has become kind of crazy.
And before we can do anything to make anything better we must assign blame.
good luck doing that with climate change or global events
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Yep, quite dangerous to forget where the line of decency must be drawn.
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The posted comment never represents one side as “good”. It correctly identifies one side as resisting imperialism and colonialism, while acknowledging its lack of perfection.
“Imperfect resistance” ahhh, the classic terrorist supporter dog-whistle.
Much like MAGAs “novel legal theory”
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Your argument is circular and inane.
Try engaging substantively.
circular and inane
I genuinely don’t think you know what either of those words mean if you think they apply to what I said.
You are describing terrorists by using normatively loaded language to make them sound like just little guys trying their best and making little mistakes. It’s disgusting.
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Israel is a terrorist state that calls as terrorists those who challenge its ambitions of occupation, apartheid, and genocide.
Being vilified by Israel is not one and the same as being fundamentally wicked.
Israel is a terrorist state
Correct. And Hamas is a terrorist organization.
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Imagine both of this can be true!!1
Hamas is labeled terrorist because it was assigned the label by Israel.
Hamas is terrorist only as much as one terrorist entity is credible to decide exactly which groups or factions are terrorist.
More generally, terrorist simply is a label states assign to their non-state enemies.
By the same standards, the Continental Army would be terrorist, as would be essentially every belligerent that has engaged in anti-colonial struggle.
Regardless, it should be concrete facts, not abstract labels, that are used to support arguments and conclusions.
There is no excusing rape and murder of civilians. You can’t handwave such atrocities as imperfection
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You’re posting hasbara again, and what’s more is it’s “every accusation is a confession” shit with a growing mountain of evidence that Israel military forces like the IDF and IOF use sexual violence to terrorize Palestinian civilians as well as incoming aid workers trying to help starving children.
Please stop re-perpetuating this harmful and wrong misinformation.
Do you have any substantial argument or do you always call common knowledge “Hasbara” if it doesn’t suit your narrative?
I don’t support Israel or IDF, they can go suck a bag of dicks lol
But surely you can acknowledge that the rape and murder of civilians isn’t resistance?
why is it so hard for yanks to understand that both things can be bad
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I am not endorsing Hamas as the legitimate leadership of Palestine. But I am saying that there is no credible evidence of rape and murder of civilians “as resistance.” You are perpetuating a harmful zionist talking point uncritically and it does the work for who you claim not to support for them. The world is filled with enough injustice to speak truth into the world about how genocide and the starving of children is wrong without doing what you’re doing here.
Hamas raped women during the 7th of October and sexually assaulted hostages. There was also the whole massacre thing during the 7th of October where the terrorists filmed themselves shooting elderly in their homes.
These guys have no argument except calling everything Hasbara, it’s such a shit show.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_October_7_attacks
the problem with tankies like that admin is that they never stop with the moral relativism. and their support of Palestine is not borne out of concern for Palestians, otherwise they wouldn’t have supported Assad’s ethnic cleansing campaign which was so brutal, you’d think it as something Israel would do. alas, they support “anti-imperialists” whose moral compass and politics are practically indistinguishable from that of Zionists
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to give you a more practical example, no one can deny that Azov is correct in fighting Russia. that doesn’t automatically make them valiant and brave anti-colonial heroes just because the Ukrainian people are fighting a war of national liberation. some groups are bad no matter how dire their local context is.
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You have no business complaining of someone else allegedly relying on a straw men.
Much of the problem is that you assume others follow your own narrow method of thought, by which every facet of the world is cast along thin and fixed lines separating good versus evil.
are my moral lines too thin and fixed or are you simply too apathetic to stop fencesitting? i know the watchers at home know the obvious answers, stay tuned for the evening news 📺
You are being dishonest, simplistic, and obscurantic.
I find no value in further discussion.
Goodbye to you and your army of absurd little straw men.
Anarchists are not tankies.
Also, the reason some leftists supported Assad was a hope to hasten the collapse of US imperialism, which causes massive death and suffering around the world. Criticizing such a stance as misguided is credible only if accompanied by a comparably critical stance against the even more deadly abuses of US imperialism.
anarchists arent tankies but Lenin Glazers like the admin irrefutably are.
Criticizing such a stance as misguided is credible only if accompanied by a comparably critical stance against the even more deadly abuses of US imperialism
there isn’t a single anti-Assad anarchist that wouldn’t also critique the US. nice try, maybe leave the strawman arguments at the door next time
The posted comment never mentions Lenin.
You are being deliberately dishonest.
Also, you are the one who just now presented not one, but several straw men.
When did I imply that “there [is] a single anti-Assad anarchist that wouldn’t also critique the US”? Again, you are being dishonest.
It is on topic, dude. Lenin and tankies are closely related, so are anarchists being tankie glazers.
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It breaks your own rules against derailing threads, and your defense is little more than a word salad of unsubstantiated dogma.
Anarchists are the strongest critics of authoritarian tendencies of leftism. Anarchists were targets of some of the earliest repression after the October Revolution, and Kropotkin famously fled the Soviet Union as an open and caustic critic of Lenin.
Anarchists by nature are the strongest critics of any authoritarianism because anarchism entails opposition to all authority.
Your failure to distinguish between anarchists and authoritarian leftists is ignorant and absurd.
I’m not being dishonest, I’m just not coddling your feelings
What an absurd defense.
Once again, you deflect with an accusation that is completely unsubstantiated, an obvious non sequitur.
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Hamas would behead you for being queer :)
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Campism. Tankies love it
Anarchists are not tankies.
Campism is support, usually largely uncritical, for imperialist powers opposed to the US, in spite of such supporters identifying as leftists, who oppose all imperialism. Critical support for a tiny, oppressed resistance movement fighting apartheid and genocide is not campism.
Are you defending Hamas?
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Are you even trying to form an original thought?
Hey now, Instance rule “be respectful,” buddy – As per your report
Are you defending Hamas or are in support of Hamas? Should be a pretty easy answer, yeah?
I sympathize generally with the posted comment.
Hamas is currently the only credible resistance against the genocidal apartheid terrorist entity of Israel.
Whether your mind is capable of parsing the nuance is beyond my control.
Hamas is currently the only credible resistance
I’m sick and tired of seeing this shit. What fucking credibility does Hamas have? They’ve been in power for 20 years and what have they achieved? Their only acts of “resistance” is terrorist attacks against civilians, that’s it. They quite literally haven’t done a single thing to resist Israel whatsoever.
This entire debacle is their doing. They spent a long time planning the Oct 7th attacks, broke the status quo, declared a holy war, and now tens of thousands of Gazans are dead because of it. Those terrorist attacks that led to this current situation is their crown achievement. The result? Israel bombed the entire strip into the ground, the IDF marched right in unopposed, they started massacring civilians, and now they control everything. Where’s the opposition? Where’s the resistance? Hamas has resisted shit since their inception.
You endorse the rape and the murder of civilians?
Anyone who uses the term “shitlibs” shouldn’t ever be taken seriously about anything.
I don’t condemn Hamas for fighting Israel but I also don’t support Hamas the Right-Wing organization created and funded by Israeli intelligence for the express purpose of weakening the PLO and preventing Palestinian unity. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if orders to launch the Oct 7 attackers came straight from Netanyahu. Some of the biggest protests to ever rock Israel occurred in 2023 from January till Oct 7 and Netanyahu would probably be in prison right now if not for the Hamas attack allowing his trial to be repeatedly delayed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests
I’m sorry but stating that Netanyahu ordered October 7th sounds more like a conspiracy than anything.
Good thing they said they wouldn’t be surprised if that occurred, and NOT that they believed that, huh?
I’m not directly making the accusation but I do think the odds are much higher than “far fetched”. Especially if you’re topically familiar with Mossad. The protests were unprecedented and the timing very convenient.
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shitlibs
But then in their other comment:
I cant speak for anyone else but on a personal level I don’t tend to agree that calling people “tankies” and “red fash” is productive when referring to other leftists
OK, for all intents and purposes, it’s a tankie.
Tankie bar. If it squawks like a duck
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Supporting dictators is antithetical to leftism. Tankies are not leftist by definition.
Oh goddamn it. I just wanted an instance that didn’t go down all the time.
SJW is decent enough, but you can always go with the classic world
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Oh hey! A dbzer0 admin. You guys banned me, so I’m banning you. shoo!
That’s extremely petty.
Satisfying though!
but nah, for real dude, I’m done with trying to cater for these extremist nutters. They hate liberalism so much that I’m not going to give them any, no equality, no fairness, nothing. When they admit they actually want some liberalism, then they can get unbanned.
DB0 is a highly suspect instance.
Well yeah it’s a tankie instance
No, they’re not. The instance is heavily anarchist and explicitly against Tankie shit. That doesn’t prevent them from endorsing problematic perspectives though.
They cosy up together at a campfire, dude. You heard of a nazi bar? If a bar doesn’t throw out a nazi, it becomes a nazi bar, and that’s exactly what’s happened to dbzer0. Circlejerking about how great authoritianism is and refusing to challenge tankies or take a stance against them is not anarchism.
They’re tankies and regularly cater towards tankies, such as Davels (Lemmy.ml admin), Cowbee and Diva, all self-confessed tankies.
They also regularly engage in ableism against me and others. They’re bigots and trolls, no wonder they federate with Hexbear.
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losing*
Ouf, I had no idea. Thanks for the screenshots. I only “met” unruffled and kittenzrulz.
Yeah, db0 is fully tankie
Go to their leftymeme community, there is a lot of regressive tankie content.
Glorification of the CCP (claiming they are not authoritarian), glorification of DPRK (!!!), tons of “Death to America” type content, whitewashing of russia and much more…
These is pretty standard stuff for online “communists” based in the West.
You should find some of those posts and share in this comm
Lol
Apparently if the USSR killed you, you were a Nazi. 100% Nazis the USSR never killed anybody that wasn’t a Nazi/s
Especially the millions of people who definitely were not Nazis like those dastardly ukrainians and Afghans and Georgians and those capitalists etc
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lmao that’s a good post. you should share that one
Be my guest
I think I will do that one of these days, I honestly have only been two comms on DB0, one unrelated to politics and the other one is the mod abuse one where I got perma-banned for challenging DB0’s pet poster (believe it or not they didn’t perma-ban me for pointing out the regressiveness and lack of humanity of the tankies).
Lefty Memes follows the principle of “leftist unity”.
I strongly oppose the principle, and especially disagree that it benefits anarchism, but it should be clear still that your conflation, of everyone as belonging to the same monolithic group, is narrow and ignorant.
I actually didn’t say anything about monolithic groups or leftists unity (to be honest, I couldn’t care less about this).
I did say that DB0 was suspect and they enable and promote tankie demagoguery (among many other things, glorification of the brutal DPRK regime).
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You imply the existence of a monolithic group by your continued careless use of “they” and “their”.
Unity doesn’t mean you should be allowing extremism and bigotry.
You have already demonstrated elsewhere in the comments that your sense of bigotry is distorted, as through the twisted rhetoric of Zionism.
Regardless, my objection is to the assumption that everyone associated with DB0 agrees with all off the content, as would seem to be based on a mindset of “us versus them”.
Yes, Zionism is a very convenient dogwhistle
The latest chapter in the Chicago Dyke March controversy unfolded late last week after the group walked back its use of the term “Zio,” a pejorative brought into prominence by former KKK Grand Wizard David Duke and often deployed by white supremacists.
I’ve dealt with neo-nazis and their extremism before and they too use zionism as a means of obscuring their views. For someone who larps so much about nuance, you should know that dogwhistles exist, and it’s the contents of the post that determine whether or not something is extremist and bigoted, or in this case, antisemitic.
Why would anarchists not support anti-colonial resistance?
Uhm, because it’s Islamic fundamentalism so basically right-wing?
The colonizers are not seeking to save Palestine from Islamic fundamentalism, but Hamas is fighting the colonizers to save Palestine.
The ideology is less relevant than the facts of life and death. Consider rereading the comment you posted for further clarity. “Morality means nothing to the dead.”
The ideology is relevant because it determines what happens if Hamas “saved Palestine”. They will constitute an Islamic state just like Iran and oppress it’s people.
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If Palestine is freed from the colonizers, then it will have boundless options for its own governance.
No conclusion is foregone respecting such affairs.
If the colonizers are not resisted, then Palestinians simply will be dead.
It should seem clear that you are following the worse path.
That’s very campist. Doesn’t that mean anarchists would’ve supported the Irgun and Lehi? Jewish terrorists who attacked arab colonisers or settlers and later went on to create the Likud party?
Because those groups, much like Hamas, say that they’re a resistance against colonisation.
I defined campism in another comment. Your understanding of the term is inaccurate.
Again, you are falling victim to all-or-nothing thinking. It is not honest or reasonable.
Now how does the same admin feel about Bandera, Azov, the Russian Volunteer Corps, and the Prigozhin mutiny?
Prigozhin wasn’t fighting against imperialism, he was a Russian imperialist himself. his only problem was that he wasn’t in control of it
Hamas is in the same boat. They’re a jihadist group who want to impose their beliefs on to everyone else through violence. They themselves are imperialist. Just because Israel is that doesn’t mean they aren’t either.
ah yes, fighting for survival in a concentration camp is the same as Israeli settlers threatening to assimilate the Middle East into Greater Israel, I am very smart and totally not geopolitics-brained
ah yes, it’s crucial for survival that we must rape these women
How do you imagine a country ruled by Hamas, provided it had enough power and resources?
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to answer your dirty edit, the country of Palestine doesn’t even exist so they’d have no country to rule over. this isn’t me taking a jab at Palestinians but acknowledging just how thorough the settler state has been at eliminating any “two state solution”. and the governments of the world are too excited about eliminating Palestinians that they’d never allow a non-Zionist aligned party to rule over anything.
I mean if you’re not interested in fully entertaining the hypothetical, realistically, Prigozhin was very unlikely to achieve much either. Not only would there be a threat to his legitimacy and life from Putin himself, but also even if he somehow got to Putin, it would drastically destabilize the government and open the door to a revolution or another coup. In authoritarian and fascist countries like Russia, everything rests on the figure of the leader.
Moreover, there’s a difference between Prigozhin criticizing from the backseat and actually being the president. The West alone would be trying hard to offer him enough to get him to stop the war, and he’d not be as ideologically and historically entrenched in it as Putin to say no. An oligarch like him is highly opportunist.
they might’ve started out that way but at this point they’re merely fighting to stay alive. which can’t be said about Prigozhin because nobody forced him to go fight Ukraine
If we’re talking how it is rather than how it could be, Prigozhin is dead.
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Well Hamas is a resistance group…
That doesn’t make it good by default. What they resist, how they do it, and what they achieved is what actually matters.
Preach!
That might be true by some definition, but doesn’t make it inherently leftist and worth supporting. Hamas is still mainly endorsing Islamist fundamentalism, which is definitely an authoritarian and oppressive ideology.
So is the Taliban and the KKK – Resistance doesn’t automatically equate to good or righteous
There is a distinction between Palestinian civilians and Hamas
This. Stauffenberg also “resisted” Hitler when trying to assassinate him, but not to liberate Germany but to get it back to monarchy.
I’m not shocked. Dbzer0 has a severe antisemitism problem. I’ve been considering making a megathread about the widespread antisemitism, but that’s more characteristic of Lemmy as a whole than a bunch of tankies.
That’s so true, unfortunately.
par for the course with extremists. It’s really curious how extremists end up being identical with their hatred and bigotry, horse-shoe theory and all that.
Bad Hasbara.
Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism.
yeah you can talk as much shit about israel as you want, don’t care. but being supportive of hamas is inherently antisemitic as hamas’s goal is the total genocide of jews and a global intifada.
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You are parroting debunked Hasbara talking points, while completely disregarding the merits of the posted comment.
Yours is precisely the narrow and simplistic, and in your case quite apparently deliberately ignorant, understanding of politics that the posted comment rightfully admonishes.
Oh, I must’ve missed the Lemmy instance dbzer0 is antisemitic hasbara talking point in hasbara school.
I’ll await your reply on Hamas before I take you seriously
Word salad.
Yes, salad for you. Go on a diet, eat the words.
