I have never seen or known a serious professional who preferred to work outside of a full featured IDE. All the most skilled and highest paid developers I’ve ever known were more adamant about using the IDE when compared to the less skilled developers who preferred to do things more via command line and text editors. Just my experience. I often suspect that this meme is shared and liked by people who aren’t really professionals. Perhaps I just haven’t encountered them yet.
Just for reference, because programming is not one big tent, as far as I know most people working professionally developing for the Linux kernel, gcc and glic uses only a text editor and “Unix as your IDE”. I never tried myself but I have a feeling that any IDE with git integration would just immediately cry trying to interact with the kernel or gcc git repo. Even gits own PS1 status feature slows to crawl in this repos.
I’m a “serious professional” who has been developing for over 20 years and I’ve generally prefer a text editor the IDEs that I’ve had to use at work. I find that most IDEs are slow resource hogs that don’t give me features that I actually care about over a fast text editor.
The singular exception was Cider when I was at Google. It was fantastic at wrangling their massive monorepo, and integration with their code review and ticket system was nice. Somehow it was snappy and reliable even though it ran in Chrome.
Nowadays I’ve switched to Helix and use LSPs for the languages I use most. For what it’s worth, those are C, C++, Rust and Python. Mostly Rust and Python now.
So, you’ve never known any Unix hackers? I worked for a student datacenter when I was at university, and we were mostly vim users; as far as text-editor diversity, we did have one guy who was into emacs and another who preferred nano. After that, I went to work at Google, where I continued to use vim. As far as fancy IDE features, I do use syntax highlighting and I know how to use the spell checker but I don’t use autocomplete. I’ve heard of neovim but don’t have a good reason to try it out yet; maybe next decade?
I’m one of those nano weirdos. I mean, I get why people use vi/vim, but I’m a lazy man who has the nano shortcuts hardwired into my muscle memory. It’s definitely not as full-featured as vim, but it does what I need it to do quickly and easily. If I need to just quickly drop into a file and do a find/replace, takes me maybe 3 seconds.
Also, to share an ancient joke from the dawn of computing: emacs is a great OS, I just hope someone makes a decent text editor for it eventually.
I, on the other hand, would not consider someone a serious, competent professional if they were unable to do their job without an IDE. Sure, every serious developer I’ve known uses an IDE or similar for day to day work, but that’s a matter of convenience. In my book “competence” includes being able to do your job without needing your hand held by the IDE.
It’s all variable, and highly dependent on the languages you use, the types of applications you develop, your personal workflows, what you learned with and got used to as you were learning to program, and a myriad of other factors. Painting in broad strokes, like what the meme is doing or what you’re doing, is almost never correct. There’s always nuance.
The Minecraft world editor? They use that for developing non-Minecraft world software? That’s pretty fascinating. What sort of things do they develop with it?
I learned to copy/paste website source code into notepad when I was a teenager, so vscodium is more than enough for my needs. I have been full time doing front end web dev, shipping in production, since 2014. I do svelte these days for internal tooling for a well known grocer currently. Having Linux experience as well ever since knoppix came out also helped
When I think IDE I think Visual Studio or IntelliJ or XCode, these extremely heavy single use (originally at least, C# Java and ObjC respectively) behemoths. But then again I was born in the late 1900s. I think of vscode and atom before more akin to a JavaScript successor of notepad++
If it does more than allow you to edit text, then it’s an IDE. Semantic find and replace? IDE. “Go to definition”? IDE. Terminal in the same window? IDE. Git integration? IDE.
I use vscode (or codium when not at work) these days because it’s a one stop shop for every language and every feature I could ever need is possible with a plugin. I have used visual studio, intelliJ and others in the past, and i fail to see the distinction from a usage perspective
Not saying you’re wrong, I’m just explaining what I think of when I think ide. I think of visual studio and its integration into windows dev, Xcode and its integration for macOS and apple dev, etc. I think of vscode as a super sublime text in its goals, or akin to vim/helix
Hey, I was explicitly being open to being wrong and acknowledging that I may simply not have encountered those kinds of professionals. I don’t even think I was being hostile, only saying that from my perspective the idea of this meme is a misunderstanding propagated by people with less experience.
But rather than present any evidence, even anecdotal, taking it personally (even as a joke) serves only to publicly make me look more correct 🤷
I don’t think you were hostile, you just have a different experience than others in this thread. At my workplace we design hardware and make embedded systems. Depending on which part of the system you’re working on you’ll either never leave Visual Studio or exclusively use the unix command line. Both groups are absolutely serious professionals. Not every workplace is like mine; most will have only one of the two groups.
The only people who would take you being “more correct” from any of this are those who don’t know much about SW development. In internet lingo, what you wrote in your OC is called ragebait.
I have never seen or known a serious professional who preferred to work outside of a full featured IDE. All the most skilled and highest paid developers I’ve ever known were more adamant about using the IDE when compared to the less skilled developers who preferred to do things more via command line and text editors. Just my experience. I often suspect that this meme is shared and liked by people who aren’t really professionals. Perhaps I just haven’t encountered them yet.
Just for reference, because programming is not one big tent, as far as I know most people working professionally developing for the Linux kernel, gcc and glic uses only a text editor and “Unix as your IDE”. I never tried myself but I have a feeling that any IDE with git integration would just immediately cry trying to interact with the kernel or gcc git repo. Even gits own PS1 status feature slows to crawl in this repos.
The largest repos in the world are monorepos (the major tech companies). IDEs can handle those codebases just fine (might be modified).
I’m a “serious professional” who has been developing for over 20 years and I’ve generally prefer a text editor the IDEs that I’ve had to use at work. I find that most IDEs are slow resource hogs that don’t give me features that I actually care about over a fast text editor.
The singular exception was Cider when I was at Google. It was fantastic at wrangling their massive monorepo, and integration with their code review and ticket system was nice. Somehow it was snappy and reliable even though it ran in Chrome.
Nowadays I’ve switched to Helix and use LSPs for the languages I use most. For what it’s worth, those are C, C++, Rust and Python. Mostly Rust and Python now.
That’s the first time I’ve heard a positive review of Cider. Compared to IntelliJ it was really lacking.
I know more than one person (I think 4, including me) who code for a living and essentially live in tmux.
So, you’ve never known any Unix hackers? I worked for a student datacenter when I was at university, and we were mostly vim users; as far as text-editor diversity, we did have one guy who was into emacs and another who preferred nano. After that, I went to work at Google, where I continued to use vim. As far as fancy IDE features, I do use syntax highlighting and I know how to use the spell checker but I don’t use autocomplete. I’ve heard of neovim but don’t have a good reason to try it out yet; maybe next decade?
I’m one of those nano weirdos. I mean, I get why people use vi/vim, but I’m a lazy man who has the nano shortcuts hardwired into my muscle memory. It’s definitely not as full-featured as vim, but it does what I need it to do quickly and easily. If I need to just quickly drop into a file and do a find/replace, takes me maybe 3 seconds.
Also, to share an ancient joke from the dawn of computing: emacs is a great OS, I just hope someone makes a decent text editor for it eventually.
On the contrary most people I know who “really know their shit” are using neovim and cli tools.
I, on the other hand, would not consider someone a serious, competent professional if they were unable to do their job without an IDE. Sure, every serious developer I’ve known uses an IDE or similar for day to day work, but that’s a matter of convenience. In my book “competence” includes being able to do your job without needing your hand held by the IDE.
It’s all variable, and highly dependent on the languages you use, the types of applications you develop, your personal workflows, what you learned with and got used to as you were learning to program, and a myriad of other factors. Painting in broad strokes, like what the meme is doing or what you’re doing, is almost never correct. There’s always nuance.
Many embedded developers would like to have a word with you
The best I know uses mcedit, there definitely life beyond IDEs
The Minecraft world editor? They use that for developing non-Minecraft world software? That’s pretty fascinating. What sort of things do they develop with it?
Nah, Midnight Commander’s. And literally everything, websites, shell script, data pipelines, satellites…
If you’re in a jvm or Microsoft heavy environment then maybe so.
I learned to copy/paste website source code into notepad when I was a teenager, so vscodium is more than enough for my needs. I have been full time doing front end web dev, shipping in production, since 2014. I do svelte these days for internal tooling for a well known grocer currently. Having Linux experience as well ever since knoppix came out also helped
I would call vscode(ium) an IDE
It is not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_development_environment
When I think IDE I think Visual Studio or IntelliJ or XCode, these extremely heavy single use (originally at least, C# Java and ObjC respectively) behemoths. But then again I was born in the late 1900s. I think of vscode and atom before more akin to a JavaScript successor of notepad++
If it does more than allow you to edit text, then it’s an IDE. Semantic find and replace? IDE. “Go to definition”? IDE. Terminal in the same window? IDE. Git integration? IDE.
I use vscode (or codium when not at work) these days because it’s a one stop shop for every language and every feature I could ever need is possible with a plugin. I have used visual studio, intelliJ and others in the past, and i fail to see the distinction from a usage perspective
Not saying you’re wrong, I’m just explaining what I think of when I think ide. I think of visual studio and its integration into windows dev, Xcode and its integration for macOS and apple dev, etc. I think of vscode as a super sublime text in its goals, or akin to vim/helix
I think your message ended there, you accidentally copypasted some garbage after that statement.
Hey, I was explicitly being open to being wrong and acknowledging that I may simply not have encountered those kinds of professionals. I don’t even think I was being hostile, only saying that from my perspective the idea of this meme is a misunderstanding propagated by people with less experience.
But rather than present any evidence, even anecdotal, taking it personally (even as a joke) serves only to publicly make me look more correct 🤷
I don’t think you were hostile, you just have a different experience than others in this thread. At my workplace we design hardware and make embedded systems. Depending on which part of the system you’re working on you’ll either never leave Visual Studio or exclusively use the unix command line. Both groups are absolutely serious professionals. Not every workplace is like mine; most will have only one of the two groups.
The only people who would take you being “more correct” from any of this are those who don’t know much about SW development. In internet lingo, what you wrote in your OC is called ragebait.
Maybe you’re just very easily enraged?