Give me something juicy

  • bsit@sopuli.xyz
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    15 hours ago

    Burden‑of‑proof reversal - >support your positive claim that consciousness is fundamental.

    Begging the question / Circular reasoning - Presenting that claim as a settled fact without argument assumes the very point under dispute.

    I did offer support, several times. Just because you keep skipping over it doesn’t mean I didn’t. My support is: to say anything about the world, you have to be conscious first. Feel free to refute the fact. Once you do, I’ll respond.

    I’m presenting an axiom. Every “proof” you offer for matter is itself an experience appearing within consciousness. I’m not assuming the conclusion; I’m highlighting the only medium through which “evidence” is even possible.

    False analogy / Irrelevant comparison

    Materialism and Idealism are equally “unfalsifiable” at the foundational level. Science measures the behavior of things (phenomena), but it cannot prove the nature of the “thing-in-itself” (noumena) exists without a witness.

    Tu quoque / Defensive turn

    It is not a fallacy to point out that you’re guilty of the very “unfounded belief” you accuse me of. It is a valid critique of Scientism (the mistaken belief that the scientific method can solve metaphysical questions)

    Equivocation

    I’m not “blurring” terms; I’m defining them more precisely. For an Idealist, “to exist” is synonymous with “to be experienced”. You are assuming a secondary, unobservable definition of “existence” outside of experience.

    Appeal to ignorance / Appeal to unfalsifiability

    Materialism relies on indirect inference. Every “fact” about matter is an appearance within consciousness. Not only that, it’s a thing filtered through language. Idealism relies on direct evidence: the immediate, undeniable fact of experience itself (before labels, words, concepts, map-to-the-territory) There is zero evidence for matter existing independently of an observer. To claim that matter exists when no one is experiencing it is an unfalsifiable leap of faith, not a scientific “fact”.

    Rhetorical trap / Straw‑man implication - Labeling the opponent’s method a “trap” without showing how their specific move misapplies logic risks mischaracterizing their argument rather than refuting it.

    I did explain, but well… you don’t read. You just want to prove yourself right.

    Special pleading - Claiming your position is exempt from the usual requirement to provide independent support while insisting others must disprove theirs functions like special pleading.

    I’m pointing at the Hard Problem of Consciousness. It is actually “special pleading” to claim matter is the only thing that doesn’t need a witness to be “real”.

    Consciousness isn’t just the starting line, it’s the entire field. Without it, there’s no game, no players, no ‘matter.’ You’re arguing about the rules of a game while standing on the field and pretending the field doesn’t exist. Matter is the “Guess”: You only assume physical things (like rocks or brains) exist “out there” because your awareness shows them to you as images, sounds, or feelings. In short: You don’t have to prove you are aware, but you do have to prove that the “outside world” exists when you aren’t looking at it

    Just in case there’s someone else reading this at this point and is actually interested, go read these (because the person I’m responding to won’t and there’s little point in continuing to argue with someone like that):

    https://philarchive.org/rec/KASAIA-3 Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology, Bernardo Kastrup

    This is a recent philosophical look into Idealism

    Some useful wikipedia links:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind–body_dualism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naïve_realism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map–territory_relation

    • Redacted@lemmy.world
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      14 hours ago

      If you treat the claim as an axiom, say so explicitly and accept it as metaphysics; otherwise, provide one concrete empirical or explanatory consequence that would favor idealism over materialism and define which sense of exist you mean (phenomenal vs. ontological).

      • ageedizzle@piefed.caOP
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        11 hours ago

        If you treat the claim as an axiom, say so explicitly and accept it as metaphysics

        If it wasn’t obvious from the subject matter, I’m pretty sure he made clear that he was making a metaphysical/philosophical claim rather than a scientific one with this comment:

        You don’t have to like philosophy but then don’t start arguing about it,

        • Redacted@lemmy.world
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          10 hours ago

          Fair enough it’s controversial I’ll give them that.

          But so is my goldfish’s belief that the grass is blue and the sky is green.