It is so difficult to find modern electronics without telemetry and ads. Smartphones, laptops, TVs, home routers, security cameras, cars, game consoles, e-readers, projectors, 3D printers, fitness trackers, speakers, and even some printers. Why can’t customers be free from this data collection and advertising? It’s not that we don’t care about it. There simply aren’t many alternatives, and the few that do exist are either more expensive or offer fewer features. Seriously, we need a list of products we can buy and use directly without worrying about telemetry or advertising.
The following list is updated at https://lemmy.ml/post/52706206. Please note that this list may contain errors.
- PC: Anything Linux
- Laptop: Framework Laptop, System76, MNT, Purism Laptops, Starlabs Laptops, TUXEDO Computers, NovaCustom, Slimbook
- Smartphone: Jolla Phone, Purism, Brax Phone and its Criticism, NovaCustom Smartphones, Fairphone with /e/OS
- Google Pixel + GrapheneOS might be a better option
- Fairphone OS collects information such as the IMEI, serial number, OS version, device model/brand, operator information, and network/cell information…
- Tablets: StarLite by Starlabs
- Smartwatch: Pinetime, Bangle.js, ZSWatch, Pebble
- GadgerBridge is a free and open source Android application that allows you to pair and manage various gadgets such as smart watches, bands, headphones, and more without the need for the vendor application.
- HealthyPi Move is not available yet
- Wireless headphones: Fairphone Fairbuds
- Alternatives: IEMs (wired in-ear monitors) + wireless dongle
- Kiwi Ears Cadenza, Truthear Gate/Hexa/Pure, Moondrop Chu 2, Fiio BTR11, Snowsky Retro Nano…
- Alternatives: IEMs (wired in-ear monitors) + wireless dongle
- Wireless Speakers: ?
- E-ink devices: CrossPoint Reader Devices
- Open Book Touch is not available yet
- https://www.crowdsupply.com/e-paper
- TVs: ?
- Projectors: ?
- Game Console: Anything Linux
- MiSTer FPGA is an open-source FPGA-based retro gaming platform, not a single commercial console. There’s no official finished console to buy.
- VR:
- Steam Frame has telemetry but there is no better option
- Routers: OPNsense
- GL.iNET has telemetry, but you can install OpenWrt on it.
- MikroTik routers does seem to collect telemetry
- SmartHome:
- Alternatives: Home Assistant + Zigbee / Z-Wave Devices Without WiFi
- Security cameras: ?
- Reolink cameras collects telemetry but can be used locally.
- Printers: ?
- Openprinter an open hardware printer that is not available yet.
- 3D printers: Prusa 3D Printer, Sovol
- Cars: ?
- Slate is not available yet
- It’s Official: Cars Are the Worst Product Category We Have Ever Reviewed for Privacy by Mozilla
- Anything else that doesn’t come with ads or telemetry built in?
Other suggestions:
PC
I currently still use my iPad as my daily driver, do not have the money to replace it yet. I do have a handful of pi’s, and a old (2014) Mac mini with Debian installed, doing things on my LAN that my iPad cannot. Snapdragon and other ARM or RISC-V CPU’s are not Intel/AMD or x86.
Smart phone
I am waiting a little while until I can get a Motorola phone that I can install Graphen OS on.
Wireless Speakers
Just don’t. Get wired ones.
TV’s
Turn off all the “smart” features you may have to search around to find instructions to turn off the negging for an internet connection but get something like a pi 5 or a media centre PC (with Linux) to replace the smart features. Than you decide how your media is stored and hosted on your LAN.
Printers
Do not connect them to the internet, full stop. I find it iffy to even let them host their own wifi as well, mine is attached to a pi running CUPS.
Anything else?
I swear by pihole, while others in the ad-blocker/tracker community swear by adguard I tried it but came back to pihole. You will find debates for or against either one, probably the first one you choose will be the one you like because you will mod it and add the ad lists/blacklists that work best for you. I have 2 piholes on two pi 5s (they run on other pis as well, I have had pihole running on a pi 0 2 before), one as the primary DNS and one as the secondary DNS. I think only the primary is also running unbound along side of it but I don’t remember if the second one is.
Self host as much as you can when I started down the journey of self hosting I thought it would last 3 months at most; I had been watching youtube videos for a few years so I thought I knew everything I wanted to do, I had been running pihole and homebridge for years already so I thought I would be ready for this journey oh how wrong was I, I thought nextcloud would be fine for everything I needed turns out no I think I found pictures was the first issue I had with it so I found immich, than calendars so I found an app for that than contacts, and so on and so forth nextcloud tries to do to many things so it does nothing well, I am still looking for something that does files better than samba as I would like either a gui or webui. I have a VPN from my GL.iNET firewall (running vanilla-ish OpenWRT, it is a clean install but I have installed things and modded it to my needs and likings) so I can access all my stuff from outside of my LAN. I wanna say my firewall forces all DNS stuff through port 53 even if it is hard coded to go elsewhere on my IoT vLAN (10.66.6.x), which than goes to my pihole set up.
I have my own domain that has a wildcard email setup so everything gets it’s own email; when I mapped out my 3 month self hosting journey I had email setup set for a week long project for after I got my 2 static IP’s, I found out that was not a realistic plan. My old host, who I would not suggest (hosthero), did not offer a wild card option fot email so I had to go create a new address each time I wanted to signup for a free trial, as many times as I wanted to, but now with my new host, who I would suggest (easydns), offers a wild card option so I can come up with one on the spot. I was furniture shopping recently and I was asked for an email, I quickly had a thought and gave them their store name my domain.
AMD has their equivalent of Intel’s ME. They call it the PSP.
Thanks the post is updated
For eink, the XTEink devices work offline. If you put https://crosspointreader.com/ on them, then it’s not even XTEink’s software running on it.
@hperrin@lemmy.ca Thanks the post is updated
https://lemmy.ml/post/52928541 is locked so I replied here
Last I checked (which, admittedly, was a few years ago) I literally couldn’t find any security cameras that weren’t compromised in some way. The only options are basically:
Consumer models tied to “cloud” services Generic Chinese ONVIF cameras that probably phone home to who knows where unless you firewall them off from the Internet ONVIF cameras that might have a slightly better reputation than the previous category but are only sold through security system installers, not normal retail channels Analog (not IP) cameras that you hook up via coaxial cable Building your own goddamn camera from scratch with a Raspberry Pi or somethingIt’s ridiculous!
For TVs, there used to be the option of Sceptre dumb TVs, but even those have disappeared from the market in the last year or so.
I’ve been looking for a smartwatch/fitness tracker (and a bike computer, which is kind of a similar category) and the pickings seem very slim there, too. There’s the Pebble and the PineTime, which are open but maybe lack some of the sensors one might want in a fitness tracker, and there’s stuff that’s intended to be proprietary but supported by Gadgetbridge (e.g. iGPSPORT bike computers) . There might be others, but I don’t know about them.
It’s fuckin’ bleak, y’all. I’m at the point where I’m seriously considering building almost all my own tech out of Raspberry Pis and/or ESP32s because that’s easier than searching for needles in the infinite haystack of surveillance capitalist slop!
@grue@lemmy.world Thanks the post is updated
https://lemmy.ml/post/52928541 is locked so I replied here
But why is the list not hosted in a repo or something but instead needs to be over at lemmy.ml?
@lokalhorst@feddit.org Anyone is more than welcome to put this in a repo. I will add the link to the post.
https://lemmy.ml/post/52928541 is locked so I replied here
As for laptops, there are a lot of other options like Tuxedo, NovaCustom, and Slimbook
I would avoid the Brax phone, they haven’t fulfilled orders and are super shady + social media influencer platform is never a great look. I would prefer the Fairphone, they’ve been around for ages, and you can install mobile Linux on their devices too since they let you unlock the boot loader. postmarketOS on the FP6 is developing rapidly and very exciting! Other pmOS supported devices like the OP6 or Pixel 3a series could be considered too, as well as the custom Android ROMs (Graphene, Calyx, etc.)
AsteroidOS is Linux on smartwatches, what more do you want? You also have Pebble if you’re into e-ink and that sort
As for TVs, it’s tricky, but just look for the non-smart ones (there are quite a few!), and I know Sony makes the Bravia TVs where you can set them to be “basic” non-smart mode. You could also go with a projector instead, those usually don’t have smart TV shenanigans. You can also use a Linux mini PC running Plasma Bigscreen and/or Kodi as an alternative to Google TV.
Mini PCs running some form of Linux (Bazzite, CachyOS, Fedora, Mint, whatever) are always awesome. You also have emulation stuff, like the MiSTER Pi mentioned by another user, but you could run emulation stuff on any cheap hardware (running Linux) just fine.
OpenWRT is supported by lots of routers, and GL.iNet makes routers that have it preinstalled. You also have the MikroTik routers, which run the Linux-based RouterOS (+ they are based in Latvia 🇱🇻)
Reolink cameras w/ Frigate and Home Assistant is the best combo.
The only wireless headphones I would recommend are the Fairphone Fairbuds Gen 2, since they won’t die in a few years w/ replaceable parts and battery, and even then, for 99% of usecases, I would rather go with IEMs + some wireless dongle (I use the Fiio BTR11, but others exist too, in particular, the Fiio Snowsky Retro Nano has replaceable batteries of an esoteric form factor). You get the convenience of wireless as well as all the benefits of wired: harder to lose, better audio quality, WAY cheaper (seriously, I spent less than $30 on my kit), longer lasting, etc. I would recommend the Kiwi Ears Cadenza and Truthear Gate, and I’ve heard the Hexa/Pure is great too. Moondrop’s Chu 2 are awesome too with a metal shell for a ridiculously low price, but the brass nozzle oxidises and clogs in humid environments (I am in the humid land of HK, so no go for me)
As for printers, the Open Printer is crowd funding and looks really neat! You of course have the Brother laser printers too, but not sure about their telemetry and tracking.
I am moving to Piefed at scallisto@retrofed.com (https://retrofed.com/u/scallisto)@sbeak@sopuli.xyz Thanks for the suggestions. I have updated the post. https://lemmy.ml/post/52928541 is locked so I replied here
You can probably add pebble under smartwatch. The new devices have fully open source firmware (and app). There are no ads and the store is to my understanding run by volunteers (rebble, a perfect born after pebbles first attempt at a watch failed many years ago).
The watches are also fully supported by gadgetbridge.
Thanks the post is updated
For printer options we can keep an eye on this project that I saw today https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/openprinter
My elegoo 3d printer is also way too dumb to know the concept of telemetry.
Which elegoo 3d printer are you using?
Elegoo says they may automatically collect:
IP address Device model and OS version Device serial number and other unique identifiers Device activation information Sensor information Usage data, including feature usage frequency, duration, clicks, searches, settings and update habits Software/connection performance Print success rate Alarm information Crash logs Location information, including potentially latitude and longitude Hardware information from the slicing software, such as CPU/GPU and memory Software crash and diagnostic informationJust an ender clone that I shove an SD card into after slicing. I guess the newer ones do all that so I’ll avoid them.
Maybe a slicing software without tracking would be nice actually.
Robert Braxman is a fraud and so is his Brax Phone.
Anyway stop buying or caring about brand new “products”, creating e-waste, and feeding this stupid exponential growth economy and extractive capitalism. You don’t need everything to be the latest version. Engage in the local circular economy, buy used on local marketplaces, reuse and repair old devices. Give second life to old things we already produced.
You don’t even need to try hard to be private with old, used stuff. Bought an old laptop? Good, it only runs Linux. Bought an old MP3 player? Good, it doesn’t even have Spotify or internet. Bought an old gaming console? Good, you can find any torrent you could ever want, any genre, completely for free, offline.
Thank you for the link. I have updated the post.
It’s not that we don’t care about it
That’s not true. People who give the slightest shit about it are in the minority. My supposedly tech savvy relative told me I am “overthinking” smart TVs by never wanting one connected to the internet. The next day after that conversation, the most recent LG scandal came to light. I sent them a link to the video. I saw that they were supposedly typing for a few seconds and then they never responded. I suspect they considered arguing with me about it being a problem and then realized it was going to be a tough argument to have. I doubt that made them think twice about getting more Internet connected devices though. They’ve personally overseen installing Alexas in multiple homes and they think I’m absurd for seeing those as bad for privacy.
When I got a new TV (late 2010’s 2017 or 19 pretty sure it was 19) the friend hekping me move it in and set it up got me to hook it up to the wifi, I said I did not need it because I have an AppleTV but she insisted. 2020 came around and I got back into pihole, what the hell was I supposed to do in that year? And I saw how much data it was blocking, so I went looking for “smartTV” lists and saw how much more it was blocking. I read stuff and decided to turn off all the “smart” features and just to take it off the network all together.
I wish it happened sooner but a few years later I fell down the rabbit hole of FOSS and ended up getting a bunch of raspberry pi’s, I dug out an old Mac mini and installed Debian on it to act as a media server because one of my pi 5’s was not doing enough for me. That pi is soon going to replace my AppleTV and just stream the transcoded stuff from my mini and arr stack to my TV that I made dumb.
This is why regulations exist. Expecting the average corpo to not do evil shit, or the average consumer to understand why this is important is never going to happen.
Once I get more politically active it will be an absolute nightmare to scrub my house.
Tasks to do.
-check my RCA tv, disable all RF connectivity.
-audit Nvidia Shield and decide if the frequency of telemetry is palatable, likely replace with a Pi5 streamer box. Not sure if that has eARC so maybe adjust my whole stereo setup.
-move Phillips hue bulbs off the first party hub to a ZigBee hub.
-remove Google home devices, set up echo dots or whatever they are named and finish setting up the home assistant stack for voice assistant, find cheap tablet for HA dashboard.
-audit Honeywell home, set temp via home assistant integration only.
-same with Emporia power devices, local integration only.
-degoogle phone.
-replace ubiquity WiFi AP with something else probably
-replace Synology NAS maybe.
-shut down Milestone VMS and windows server in favor of an open source VMS, audit POE CCTV cameras for telemetry.
-audit BAS-IP video doorbell. That should work SIP only, I could probably snag access to their internal code base through work connections, the founder is a really nice lady and the rest of her team is cool too.
-Remove Windows from gaming PC, Linux steam or wine compatible games only.I’m sure there’s more. I probably shouldn’t list all the stuff I use like this but whatever, if I’m tipped over right now there’s not going to be any compromat/ opsec implications.
Just because your “tech savvy relativ” says you should not overthink does not mean the relativ does not care about it.
It just means your relativ does not assume that its privacy gets invaded by every device.
This are 2 different things.
With all due respect I know how they think and I’m not sure why you think you do? This is a “I’ve got nothing to hide” person
I am mostly referring to the first 2 sentences since the other text does not comment on anything that he actually said or did.
Just because someone is naive enough to think that a smart device does not spy on you or downplays what they know does not mean they do not care about privacy.
In order to say that the relative does not care about privacy, the relative would have to know the exact extent on what they collect and what they can do with it. You cannot assume that a normal person or even “tech savvy person” understands what is possible.
It is possible that what you said is applicable for your relative but in general this does not apply.
It’s interesting that instead of assuming I have any basis for saying what I did, you’re trying to educate me on how to interpret someone’s actions I have known my entire life. I can assure you I’ve tried to have this discussion with them several times. They dismiss every privacy concern brought up if it relates to tech companies. They care about privacy insofar as they think it’s wrong when the government violates it, but if they get a free service out of a deal, they dismiss the idea that the trade off could potentially not be worth it.
Tldr; your drive by guess at what may have been said does not override information you do not have.
I never said that you are wrong. You have misinterpreted that. I simply say that in general, that what you said about your relative is not enough to assume that the relative does not care about privacy.
I never have said anything else. More information was not given.
We are talking about a specific person that you quoted how I described them as if I might be making shit up. The fact that I said “my relative” is enough information for any reasonable person to know I probably have a long history with them. I never once said this applies to every person. I only mentioned they are tech saavy because they absolutely have the capability of understanding and being shocked by privacy invasions, they just decided long ago it wasn’t worth caring about. And I know this due to the dozens of interactions with them on the topic. Including essentially telling me I’m wasting my time caring of my TV spies on me. More history there is that I’ve told them about real cases of this happening years ago also and they dismissed that as not mattering then as well
Weird interaction.
We are talking about a specific person that you quoted how I described them as if I might be making shit up.
No, thats just you beeing offended. Never once did that.
I never once said this applies to every person.
But with the quote at the start you implied that there a lots of ppl. It should be common sense that there is almost never a 100% complete agreement within such a broad undefined group.
Mozilla created such a list: Privacy Not Included.
deleted by creator
Unfortunately they have stopped providing that list. 🙁
As the post I linked to says:
Privacy Not Included was launched in 2017 to help you understand the privacy risks of tech products that connect to the internet. We are continuing that work in the form of Product Reviews at our magazine Nothing Personal, where our privacy experts do hours of hands-on testing and research on the most popular consumer tech items and their privacy features.
the link doesn’t work?
Linux home computers are where this starts.
If you use a robot vacuum, it might help to get one without a camera, only Lidar.
(I also made a point of buying a smart tv without a microphone, but it was already hard to find one in 2023, I imagine it’s even worse now.)
E-ink devices: I think you can put all of them in flight mode, at least that’s what I do, and upload books via USB cable. No need for network features.
Speakers: Just buy a cheap and basic wired one?
Smartwatch: How would one work without telemetry? It’s kinda the whole point 🤔 I guess you can try to replace the software with Gadgetbridge.
Please see the updated post
- Smartwatch: Pinetime
nice! wow, at 27 USD it really is cheap :o
sadly for now I find my Garmin’s features useful, but I hope more open products like this will appear over time
Thank you for providing these suggestions. However, for this post, we’re specifically looking for devices that come with no telemetry or ads by default. The goal is to identify products that respect users’ privacy out of the box, so customers don’t have to disable features, replace software, or put in extra effort to make the device private.
Sadly most chips contain backdoors especially Intel and AMD. Unless a performant open source RiscV chip comes along everything has spyware
Even then, just because the design of a RiscV chip is open source doesn’t mean that’s what is being printed.
Any source?
Well, that’s frustrating. But if we want to break free from all this, we have to start somewhere. We can’t have a computer without a chip, but at least on the software side, we might be able to find manufacturers like Framework for other devices that don’t come with ads and telemetry.
Framework does actually support a RISCV chip already which is admirable. They’re doing good work in that regard. But that is very much a development laptop, it can’t run serious work yet. Even for basic browsing it’s nearly unusable.
Raspberry Pi? Fairphone 6? I love my ancient iPod Classic. Also, OpenWRT One router? Wired headphones? Get monitor instead of TV?
We really do need a list.
