Yes, and just like Trump, I’m not speaking of the white nationalists and nazies.
"So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people – and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists – because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.
“Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets, and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group.”
Note that this is the second statement he made, which he had to make after being called out by the media for seemingly supporting the neonazi protestors. Which, given his history at that point and subsequently, it’s pretty obvious that the media was right and he was just back tracking due to bad publicity.
Yeah, and it specifically ignores that the statement you posted was the second, clarifying statement days later. Snopes is going off what he said he meant, not actually what he said. Check the United the Right wiki page for the actual timeline.
Stop letting other people think for you.
Trump did not respond to the torchlight parade on Friday night or the demonstrations on Saturday morning until 1:19 pm on Saturday, August 12, when he tweeted, “We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!”[284][33]
At the bill-signing ceremony, Trump said that “we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides”.[284][33][288][289] He added that it had been “going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. A long, long time” and that “a swift restoration of law and order” was now vital.[289]
A statement attributed to an unnamed White House spokesperson was released the next day, asserting that "The President said very strongly in his statement yesterday that he condemns all forms of violence, bigotry, and hatred. Of course that includes white supremacists, KKK, Neo-Nazi and all extremist groups. He called for national unity and bringing all Americans together
…
After the backlash for his remarks, Trump read a statement from a teleprompter two days later at the White House.[310][292] He said that “anyone who acted criminally in this weekend’s racist violence, you will be held fully accountable.”[287] and that “[r]acism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the K.K.K., neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.”[311]
The closest they have is the unattributed statement, again after the fact, trying to clarify what he said wasn’t what he meant. Like they always do.
But it’s this very specific quote that people are misrepresenting. It’s not like he first said “there were fine people on both sides” and then, a few days later, clarified that he wasn’t talking about the Nazis. He said there were fine people on both sides and explicitly added that he was not referring to the Nazis - and it’s that latter part people omit when they spread the “fine people on both sides” quote.
Because he made that clarification after the fact from a scripted statement and an anonymous white house person.
But it’s this very specific quote that people are misrepresenting. It’s not like he first said “there were fine people on both sides” and then, a few days later, clarified that he wasn’t talking about the Nazis.
Please stop acting like you know what happened. His unscripted comments did not include that, full stop.
Again, please stop letting people think for you. Here is the full statement in context. He unequivocally did not denounce the Nazis in his first statement, he gave generic statements about hate having no place in America, which is not the same as what you’re falsely saying.
But we’re closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Virginia. We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides. On many sides. It’s been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. This has been going on for a long, long time.
It has no place in America. What is vital now is a swift restoration of law and order and the protection of innocent lives. No citizen should ever fear for their safety and security in our society, and no child should ever be afraid to go outside and play, or be with their parents, and have a good time.
I just got off the phone with the Governor of Virginia, Terry McAuliffe, and we agreed that the hate and the division must stop, and must stop right now. We have to come together as Americans with love for our nation and true affection – really – and I say this so strongly – true affection for each other.
Our country is doing very well in so many ways. We have record – just absolute record employment. We have unemployment, the lowest it’s been in almost 17 years. We have companies pouring into our country. Foxconn and car companies, and so many others, they’re coming back to our country. We’re renegotiating trade deals to make them great for our country and great for the American worker. We have so many incredible things happening in our country. So when I watch Charlottesville, to me it’s very, very sad.
I want to salute the great work of the state and local police in Virginia – incredible people – law enforcement, incredible people – and also the National Guard. They’ve really been working smart and working hard. They’ve been doing a terrific job. The federal authorities are also providing tremendous support to the governor. He thanked me for that. And we are here to provide whatever other assistance is needed. We are ready, willing, and able.
Uh huh, and I’m sure we can take him at his word. It’s not like he’s ever lied. He never gave a nod to nazis ever, like telling the proud boys to stand by. Yup, good old not racist donnie, I’m sure he totally hates white supremacists.
You wanna talk bad faith, believe anything that comes out of his orange piehole.
Misrepresenting what someone says is a textbook example of bad faith so doing that in a discussion about bad faith is ironic to say the least. What he actually thinks is unrelated to this discussion as it’s about what he said. You’d call people out for twisting your words so hold yourself to the same standards.
You are appearing more and more bad faith, or just plain grossly ignorant, and willfully so… If you won’t accept the truth, the truth that is being handed to you, with references, by other people, then prepare to not be part of this “echo chamber” for much longer…
I don’t even know what truths you think I’m not accepting here.
I don’t change my views because people bully me for them. I change my views when someone demonstrates to me that they’re worth changing and that haven’t happened in this thread. What ever convincing arguments you may have seen clearly have not been convincing to me.
Not believing lying sociopaths is not bad faith, and I’m having trouble accepting that you’d actually think it is. I’m not sure why you’re so hung up on mango mussolini anyway, as this discussion started when I claimed that the right lied way more than the left. The president wasn’t responsible for all the lies the GOP has told for the past 50 years, although he sure does have more than his fair share.
You’re misquoting him - that’s bad faith. Whether or not you believe him is a separate issue. When you criticize someone for what they said, you should address their actual words - not your interpretation of them.
Again, this discussion isn’t about him. You said both sides have plenty of bad faith, which is wrong. In light of this discussion I’m beginning to see why you can’t understand the differences, or just refuse to.
It’s you who brought him up with your smug “fine people on both sides” misquote and its him you’ve been talking ever since. Only now you’re moving the goal posts back to what I originally was talking about.
You said both sides have plenty of bad faith, which is wrong.
What are you even claiming here? That there is no “plenty of” bad faith on the left too?
Every last one of them who voted for trump has decided that bigotry (of multiple sorts) and steamrolling our constitution in the name of authoritarianism are somewhere between just what they wanted and not a dealbreaker.
Heh, I’m sure they are much better people than US conservatives, but I’ll quote myself from elsehwere.
The conservatives who “can’t” post to Lemmy are the ones who don’t know how to have an actual conversation and get banned. What fraction of conservatives that represents is an excercise left to the reader. But I’ve got my own opinion on that number for sure.
Maybe you should re-read my original comment? Because unless you think that Lemmy is not a left wing echo chamber then I have no clue what you’re arguing about here exactly.
OK, have crawled up the context tree, and don’t see where you think I’ve misunderstood your point. You think it’s an echo chamber (I do not) and you think that’s bad (I do not) and apparently I’m supposed to feel a little sheepish about not wanting shitty people with shitty behavior here at Lemmy. (I do not.)
Maybe I misread you. I think I’m being told not only that it is an echo chamber, but that I’m supposed to be bothered by it.
Meanwhile I haven’t seen an argument for what we’d gain by having more conservatives here, or what’s stopping those unicorn conservatives who aren’t raging assholes from posting.
The issue with echo chambers is that they reinforce people’s existing beliefs instead of challenging them. That often comes with extreme hostility toward anyone who doesn’t share those beliefs. If the left in the US wants to win elections they need people to vote for them who might have voted right in the past. In order to achieve this, minds needs to be changed, and that doesn’t happen in echo chambers. I’m sure you can see the value in a left-leaning person going to a place like Truth Social and, in a calm and respectful way, arguing against the claims they disagree with. Well, in my view, Lemmy could use something similar.
I also don’t think right-wingers are the only ones to blame when it comes to the breakdown of polite discussion. If you put someone who feels just as strongly about the left as people here feel about the right, it’s no surprise it turns into a mudslinging match. It takes two to tango.
The issue with echo chambers is that they reinforce people’s existing beliefs instead of challenging them. That often comes with extreme hostility toward anyone who doesn’t share those beliefs.
One more thing -
Why do conversations like this always assume:
The entirety of my life’s experience with conservatives is online or even recent.
That somehow I don’t know what conservatives support. I’m looking at the effects of what they support in the news right now. Just like I did during the satanic panic, just like I did during all their attempts to take away the rights of women, just like I did during my lifetime of watching them try to treat the actual lives of LGBTQ+ like a fucking talking point, just like I’ve done during my lifetime of watching how their policies impact black people, and (since the current group hasn’t yet figured out how to reach back in time and change textbooks) just like I learned during all my various history classes.
So now, when the conservatives in the world are the most openly hateful and bigoted they have ever been in my nearly sixty years, folks are going to scold me for being fucking done with them? Do not want, do not accept.
For sixty fucking years the group of people most obviously and loudly working to make things miserable for the fucking rest of us has been conservatives. WHAT am I going to learn now from them? A deeper understanding for how little they care about anyone not like them? The nuance of their bigotry?
I’m sure you can see the value in a left-leaning person going to a place like Truth Social and, in a calm and respectful way, arguing against the claims they disagree with. Well, in my view, Lemmy could use something similar.
In my view, again, nothing is stopping them. They either know how to have an adult discussion or they don’t. Plenty of people on Lemmy who also disagree with them will back them up for that if they can actually have an adult conversation. Probably even me, but since I’ve not seen that happen yet, tough to say!
I also don’t think right-wingers are the only ones to blame when it comes to the breakdown of polite discussion.
“The right” consists of individuals, just like “the left” does - and there’s plenty of bad faith to be found on both sides.
Is this like plenty of fine people on both sides? In aggregate, one side is far more egregious and it’s not even close.
Speaking of bad faith…
Yes, and just like Trump, I’m not speaking of the white nationalists and nazies.
Source
Note that this is the second statement he made, which he had to make after being called out by the media for seemingly supporting the neonazi protestors. Which, given his history at that point and subsequently, it’s pretty obvious that the media was right and he was just back tracking due to bad publicity.
This is where the “fine people on both sides” quote originates from.
Snopes article on the matter.
Yeah, and it specifically ignores that the statement you posted was the second, clarifying statement days later. Snopes is going off what he said he meant, not actually what he said. Check the United the Right wiki page for the actual timeline.
Stop letting other people think for you.
…
The closest they have is the unattributed statement, again after the fact, trying to clarify what he said wasn’t what he meant. Like they always do.
But it’s this very specific quote that people are misrepresenting. It’s not like he first said “there were fine people on both sides” and then, a few days later, clarified that he wasn’t talking about the Nazis. He said there were fine people on both sides and explicitly added that he was not referring to the Nazis - and it’s that latter part people omit when they spread the “fine people on both sides” quote.
Because he made that clarification after the fact from a scripted statement and an anonymous white house person.
Please stop acting like you know what happened. His unscripted comments did not include that, full stop.
Again, please stop letting people think for you. Here is the full statement in context. He unequivocally did not denounce the Nazis in his first statement, he gave generic statements about hate having no place in America, which is not the same as what you’re falsely saying.
Nor did they include the “fine people on both sides” comment that people are misquoting.
Uh huh, and I’m sure we can take him at his word. It’s not like he’s ever lied. He never gave a nod to nazis ever, like telling the proud boys to stand by. Yup, good old not racist donnie, I’m sure he totally hates white supremacists.
You wanna talk bad faith, believe anything that comes out of his orange piehole.
Misrepresenting what someone says is a textbook example of bad faith so doing that in a discussion about bad faith is ironic to say the least. What he actually thinks is unrelated to this discussion as it’s about what he said. You’d call people out for twisting your words so hold yourself to the same standards.
You are appearing more and more bad faith, or just plain grossly ignorant, and willfully so… If you won’t accept the truth, the truth that is being handed to you, with references, by other people, then prepare to not be part of this “echo chamber” for much longer…
I don’t consider anything I’ve heard so far to be the kind of evidence that would indicate what I said is somehow false.
Obstinance should not be confused with confidance.
I don’t even know what truths you think I’m not accepting here.
I don’t change my views because people bully me for them. I change my views when someone demonstrates to me that they’re worth changing and that haven’t happened in this thread. What ever convincing arguments you may have seen clearly have not been convincing to me.
Not believing lying sociopaths is not bad faith, and I’m having trouble accepting that you’d actually think it is. I’m not sure why you’re so hung up on mango mussolini anyway, as this discussion started when I claimed that the right lied way more than the left. The president wasn’t responsible for all the lies the GOP has told for the past 50 years, although he sure does have more than his fair share.
You’re misquoting him - that’s bad faith. Whether or not you believe him is a separate issue. When you criticize someone for what they said, you should address their actual words - not your interpretation of them.
Again, this discussion isn’t about him. You said both sides have plenty of bad faith, which is wrong. In light of this discussion I’m beginning to see why you can’t understand the differences, or just refuse to.
It’s you who brought him up with your smug “fine people on both sides” misquote and its him you’ve been talking ever since. Only now you’re moving the goal posts back to what I originally was talking about.
What are you even claiming here? That there is no “plenty of” bad faith on the left too?
Thank god you can point to ONE SINGLE instance where Trump isn’t actively supporting white nationalist christofascism.
Every last one of them who voted for trump has decided that bigotry (of multiple sorts) and steamrolling our constitution in the name of authoritarianism are somewhere between just what they wanted and not a dealbreaker.
What else do I need to know about them?
https://www.project2025.observer/
That people identify on the political right outside of US as well?
Heh, I’m sure they are much better people than US conservatives, but I’ll quote myself from elsehwere.
Maybe you should re-read my original comment? Because unless you think that Lemmy is not a left wing echo chamber then I have no clue what you’re arguing about here exactly.
OK, have crawled up the context tree, and don’t see where you think I’ve misunderstood your point. You think it’s an echo chamber (I do not) and you think that’s bad (I do not) and apparently I’m supposed to feel a little sheepish about not wanting shitty people with shitty behavior here at Lemmy. (I do not.)
Maybe I misread you. I think I’m being told not only that it is an echo chamber, but that I’m supposed to be bothered by it.
Meanwhile I haven’t seen an argument for what we’d gain by having more conservatives here, or what’s stopping those unicorn conservatives who aren’t raging assholes from posting.
The issue with echo chambers is that they reinforce people’s existing beliefs instead of challenging them. That often comes with extreme hostility toward anyone who doesn’t share those beliefs. If the left in the US wants to win elections they need people to vote for them who might have voted right in the past. In order to achieve this, minds needs to be changed, and that doesn’t happen in echo chambers. I’m sure you can see the value in a left-leaning person going to a place like Truth Social and, in a calm and respectful way, arguing against the claims they disagree with. Well, in my view, Lemmy could use something similar.
I also don’t think right-wingers are the only ones to blame when it comes to the breakdown of polite discussion. If you put someone who feels just as strongly about the left as people here feel about the right, it’s no surprise it turns into a mudslinging match. It takes two to tango.
One more thing -
Why do conversations like this always assume:
The entirety of my life’s experience with conservatives is online or even recent.
That somehow I don’t know what conservatives support. I’m looking at the effects of what they support in the news right now. Just like I did during the satanic panic, just like I did during all their attempts to take away the rights of women, just like I did during my lifetime of watching them try to treat the actual lives of LGBTQ+ like a fucking talking point, just like I’ve done during my lifetime of watching how their policies impact black people, and (since the current group hasn’t yet figured out how to reach back in time and change textbooks) just like I learned during all my various history classes.
So now, when the conservatives in the world are the most openly hateful and bigoted they have ever been in my nearly sixty years, folks are going to scold me for being fucking done with them? Do not want, do not accept.
For sixty fucking years the group of people most obviously and loudly working to make things miserable for the fucking rest of us has been conservatives. WHAT am I going to learn now from them? A deeper understanding for how little they care about anyone not like them? The nuance of their bigotry?
In my view, again, nothing is stopping them. They either know how to have an adult discussion or they don’t. Plenty of people on Lemmy who also disagree with them will back them up for that if they can actually have an adult conversation. Probably even me, but since I’ve not seen that happen yet, tough to say!
You are entitled to your own opinion.