There’s various reasons for antinatalism IMO, and the two biggest ones are because people think they cannot (and never will be able to) afford children, and also because they recognize the suffering the children would go through.
Like, realistically, your children inherit a lot of your traits, and if you’re suffering in this world, what reason is there to believe that it will be different for your (hypothetical) children?
And also having children is vastly expensive. It costs $100K dollars upwards just to raise them to puberty, and that’s optimistic estimates assuming no future inflation. And then there is the whole uncertainty of the future labor market. So, would you rather spend that money to bring another suffering being into this world, or would you rather say “fuck it” and enjoy your own time on this planet instead?
“I can’t afford children, therefore nobody should get to have children” how the fuck do you say that and not realize how cartoonishly selfish and authoritarian that is
Emotionally-founded movement masquerading as ethically-founded
Driven primarily by resentment
Distinctly Malthusian
Condemns a fundamental process of biological life
Primarily advocates abandoning the world before improving it
Adherents frequently direct their anger at mostly non-political actors
Yeah it’s disturbing that you’re getting so many downvotes simply for being bold in your stance here. I mean I do understand why… There are strong and often unexamined emotions at play here. But it’s still disturbing. Antinatalism isn’t eugenics but it sits right next to eugenics in a logical process. It’s positions on ecology and it’s emotional social resentment place it on a pipeline to fascism.
I actually meant to reply to the comment above you but I’m just as happy to reply to you! So I guess to add regarding what you asked about people using it as a guise for eugenics, I actually don’t think antinatalists are doing that, generally. Antinatalists aren’t villains, and I think they mostly mean well. They just have a lot of resentment, absent a fully matured leftist framework to guide those emotions into socially healthy advocacy. Which makes them sitting ducks for any actual villains looking for a demographic to coopt.
Is “antinatalism” some kind of organized movement or something? Because I think the reason that they’re getting downvotes is because it comes off as saying “your personal choice to not have kids makes you a eugenicist and a Nazi, kids are the best thing to ever happen to you in life and everybody wants them, even if they say they don’t.” It certainly came off that way to me, but I’ve never heard the term before. I just don’t want to bring another life into this hellhole of a country on this burning world that we continue to do nothing to fix.
@EldritchFeminity@infinitesunrise I’m not sure if it’s organized, but it does describe a specific school of thought that isn’t just “I don’t personally want to have kids.” Antinatalists generally believe that it’s unethical for anyone to reproduce. The core argument is usually that since you can’t consent to being born, you can’t ethically impose it on someone against their will. It tends to go hand-in-hand with misanthropic ideas such as that humans are destructive to the planet/fundamentally cruel or that life in general just sucks. Ultimately, the thesis is that humans should extinct ourselves. Given the current state of the world, it’s gained some traction amongst groups of people trapped deep in despair right now. (Which, let’s be real - there are a lot of on Lemmy)
Exactly. I don’t have ideological bases for my personal preferences, which I then promulgate to strangers online.
Have your heard of Cappucinism? A frothy espresso drink is the only kind of coffee to take with breakfast! I spend so much of my time telling others that I barely have time to wazz up the milk! Huaaagh I can’t stand Americanists, you bitter assholes are a crime against humanity. Might as well be intermittent fasters and skip the whole meal!
I get that hope is scarce these days, but hope is always a leap of faith. The point isn’t to make the jump, the point is to jump at all.
Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
How do you figure you have the authority to force someone into existence? Like, for real. To me this feels like the most selfish act possible. I can’t see any reasons that would stand up to scrutiny to have children other than “cause I wanna”. And yes. It’s forcing them. It’s not “a gift”, since a gift can be declined.
I know several new dads who would be absolutely livid at the thought of someone calling them “selfish” for what they’re currently submitting themselves to XD
A lot of us had shitty parents and find it easy to transpose those traits onto all parents. But there at least as many parents out there for whom it’s absolutely the largest sacrifice they’ve made in their entire lives. It’s them pouring all of their collected love, knowledge, and material means onto someone else so that they don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
oohhhhh woe is meeee i nEVeR AsKEd tO BE BorN
good god that’s cringe, all edge no point. This is literally 12 year old shit. And yes, your liking of eugenics is completely transparent, you don’t want anyone like you to be allowed to reproduce. That’s fascist as fuck
Antinatalism is cringe (and also fashy)
There’s various reasons for antinatalism IMO, and the two biggest ones are because people think they cannot (and never will be able to) afford children, and also because they recognize the suffering the children would go through.
Like, realistically, your children inherit a lot of your traits, and if you’re suffering in this world, what reason is there to believe that it will be different for your (hypothetical) children?
And also having children is vastly expensive. It costs $100K dollars upwards just to raise them to puberty, and that’s optimistic estimates assuming no future inflation. And then there is the whole uncertainty of the future labor market. So, would you rather spend that money to bring another suffering being into this world, or would you rather say “fuck it” and enjoy your own time on this planet instead?
“I can’t afford children, therefore nobody should get to have children” how the fuck do you say that and not realize how cartoonishly selfish and authoritarian that is
Yeah it’s disturbing that you’re getting so many downvotes simply for being bold in your stance here. I mean I do understand why… There are strong and often unexamined emotions at play here. But it’s still disturbing. Antinatalism isn’t eugenics but it sits right next to eugenics in a logical process. It’s positions on ecology and it’s emotional social resentment place it on a pipeline to fascism.
Thanks, this was useful - I hadnt unpacked this before
I actually meant to reply to the comment above you but I’m just as happy to reply to you! So I guess to add regarding what you asked about people using it as a guise for eugenics, I actually don’t think antinatalists are doing that, generally. Antinatalists aren’t villains, and I think they mostly mean well. They just have a lot of resentment, absent a fully matured leftist framework to guide those emotions into socially healthy advocacy. Which makes them sitting ducks for any actual villains looking for a demographic to coopt.
Is “antinatalism” some kind of organized movement or something? Because I think the reason that they’re getting downvotes is because it comes off as saying “your personal choice to not have kids makes you a eugenicist and a Nazi, kids are the best thing to ever happen to you in life and everybody wants them, even if they say they don’t.” It certainly came off that way to me, but I’ve never heard the term before. I just don’t want to bring another life into this hellhole of a country on this burning world that we continue to do nothing to fix.
@EldritchFeminity @infinitesunrise I’m not sure if it’s organized, but it does describe a specific school of thought that isn’t just “I don’t personally want to have kids.” Antinatalists generally believe that it’s unethical for anyone to reproduce. The core argument is usually that since you can’t consent to being born, you can’t ethically impose it on someone against their will. It tends to go hand-in-hand with misanthropic ideas such as that humans are destructive to the planet/fundamentally cruel or that life in general just sucks. Ultimately, the thesis is that humans should extinct ourselves. Given the current state of the world, it’s gained some traction amongst groups of people trapped deep in despair right now. (Which, let’s be real - there are a lot of on Lemmy)
Exactly. I don’t have ideological bases for my personal preferences, which I then promulgate to strangers online.
I get that hope is scarce these days, but hope is always a leap of faith. The point isn’t to make the jump, the point is to jump at all.
Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
I’m an anarchist and a trans woman but ok
Antinatalism is ecofascist eugenicist bullshit
From one anarchist trans woman to another:
How do you figure you have the authority to force someone into existence? Like, for real. To me this feels like the most selfish act possible. I can’t see any reasons that would stand up to scrutiny to have children other than “cause I wanna”. And yes. It’s forcing them. It’s not “a gift”, since a gift can be declined.
I know several new dads who would be absolutely livid at the thought of someone calling them “selfish” for what they’re currently submitting themselves to XD
A lot of us had shitty parents and find it easy to transpose those traits onto all parents. But there at least as many parents out there for whom it’s absolutely the largest sacrifice they’ve made in their entire lives. It’s them pouring all of their collected love, knowledge, and material means onto someone else so that they don’t leave this Earth having only taken from it.
And if their kids grow up anything like me, they’ll be grateful for that choice and happy to be alive.
oohhhhh woe is meeee i nEVeR AsKEd tO BE BorN good god that’s cringe, all edge no point. This is literally 12 year old shit. And yes, your liking of eugenics is completely transparent, you don’t want anyone like you to be allowed to reproduce. That’s fascist as fuck