im fine with trans people and non discrimination but my whole life sex and gender terms were one and the same for me and most folks in everyday language. The idea of identifying pronouns for myself seems laughable to me. Im a big believer in simple solutions. Got some temp work at a place with genderless bathrooms that had the full floor to ceiling doors. Its a bit wierd to wash my hands with girls but its not like im naked. There is all sorts of language things going out of fashion (online) and folks are like just learn it but look despite decades of school my spelling and grammar are atrocious because habits don’t change easily and no one is even forcing me to study or anything now. On top of it, like it or not for the internet folks, it has no bearing in the outside world which is still basically jugging along at its own pace. It will over time for sure but it won’t happen as quickly as early adopters would like. Also I pretty much don’t like any type of censorship of fictinoal things. Reality and fiction are two different things to me. Although modern ability to fake things is making identifying something as real as tough. I don’t want claims of it being high end fakes as letting folks get away with crimes.
Im fine with trans people and non discrimination but my whole life sex and gender terms were one and the same for me and most folks in everyday language. The idea of identifying pronouns for myself seems laughable to me.
I think telling someone your pronouns is fine, and if you tell me I will make an attempt to use them (I will remember exactly as well as I will remember your name, which is to say at least till the moment I meet the next person). I have NEVER met anyone who had a problem with this system, and I run in circles that have a very much above-average amount of gender stuff going on.
And if you DO get upset because I didn’t proactively ask for your pronouns, instead of just telling me, then we’re really not going to be talking much anyway.
Which is pretty much how I feel. Its fine if someone gives pronouns and I will do my best with it but it was not something historically I had to sorta tag people with so its a significant mental load comparatively. Its like all of a sudden having to remember everyones favorite cake or ice cream as a matter of course. That being said it being in a signature line of the email makes that pretty arbitrary but that being said its kinda annoying to have to find emails from people you talk to to see what the thing is for them. Don’t get me started on people who don’t use or ditch their signature in communications.
Your comment basically says that society progresses at its own steady pace, and people demanding more rights and societal progress are impatient and wasting their time. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how society evolves. It’s not an automatism, it is the direct result of people raising their voices and demanding rights. There is no progress without these efforts. So yes, their demands are currently unachievable - by definition. It’s not a bug, it’s not a mistake, it’s a necessity.
Im not sure if you think my thing was one thing. The first part was about expectations around changing societal norms and folks catching up with language and stuff but the last several lines where about censorship. So when it comes to fiction I don’t like anything being censored. Like there is this anime from way back. This guy finds a gun and he goes on a rape rampage and I think in the end kills himself but its been a long time. It was graphic and disturbing to say the least. It is something that there are certainly people if they were aware of it would want it banned. I do actually think it was trying to say something about guns though as well as maybe human demons and such
Respectfully, HubertManne, it seems like you have not really thought about this topic very deeply from a perspective other than your own yet.
I myself am old enough that I can appreciate your comment that “my whole life sex and gender terms were one and the same,” but many things change across the course of our lives, and “no one is even forcing me to study or anything now” is not a reason to stop learning and growing as a person.
Here is a snippet from the introduction of the first article:
====
Overview
The foundation of minority stress theory lies in the hypothesis that sexual minority health disparities are produced by excess exposure to social stress faced by sexual minority populations due to their stigmatized social status (relative to heterosexual populations). Since its introduction, which focused on sexual minorities, minority stress theory has been expanded to include gender minorities [3–5] in particular describing the role of gender non-affirmation as a stressor for transgender and nonbinary people [6].
Minority stress is distinguished from general stress—stress that all people may experience—by its origin in prejudice and stigma. Thus, a stressor, such as losing one’s job, could be a general stressor or a minority stressor depending on whether it was motivated by prejudice against sexual and gender minority people as opposed to, for example, economic downturns that impact all people regardless of sexual and gender identity.
Meyer [2] described both distal and proximal stress processes. Distal stressors include stressors that originate from people or institutions that impact the LGBT person. These include discriminatory policies and laws [7] acute major life events (e.g., losing a job, being victimized by violence) [8], chronic stressors (e.g., living in poverty) [9], more minor, “everyday” experiences of discrimination or microaggressions (e.g., being treated unfairly or with disrespect) [10], or even non-events—expected positive experiences or events that were thwarted due to stigma and prejudice [11].
Proximal stressors arise from a socialization process in which sexual and gender minority people learn to reject themselves for being LGBT (internalized stigma) [12,13], develop expectations to be stigmatized due to awareness of prevailing social stigma (expectations of rejection) [14], and/or hide their LGBT identity as a way to protect themselves against distal minority stressors (identity concealment) [15]. Concealment may be protective in some environments, but it also limits access to social support and affirmation, complicating its role in minority stress theory [15].
Collectively, these minority stressors constitute the excess stress burden that places sexual and gender minority people at greater risk for negative health outcomes compared with cisgender straight people. Against these stressors, there are individual- and group-level coping mechanisms that can reduce the negative impact of minority stress. Thus, the overall health impact in the minority stress model is determined by the negative impact of stressful experiences and the ameliorative impact of coping, social support, and resilience.
Of course we continue to learn and grow but we do that in many ways. I also have a complaint that the us has a strange kinda pull you up by the bootstratps where everyone should be able to sorta figure out everything. kinda have to be a doctor, lawyers, accountant, mechanic, general contrator, etc. and does not seem to recognize that there is a limit to cognitive load. Im not really interested in putting a whole lot of effort in here and over time I will passively take things in over time but yeah im not looking to read articles on it. Things will change but its not going to be a massive shift all of a sudden. Honestly that is something I see a lot of today (online) and expectation of massive revolution level change and if it does not happen a complete unappreciation and actually abandonment of incremental change which I think is kinda kill us in the present.
Thank you. I thought I was alone. Like, I’m not trying to be an asshole, but you’re kind of demanding a lot of a broken drunk brain that doesn’t give a shit, I’ve got problems of my own…
im fine with trans people and non discrimination but my whole life sex and gender terms were one and the same for me and most folks in everyday language. The idea of identifying pronouns for myself seems laughable to me. Im a big believer in simple solutions. Got some temp work at a place with genderless bathrooms that had the full floor to ceiling doors. Its a bit wierd to wash my hands with girls but its not like im naked. There is all sorts of language things going out of fashion (online) and folks are like just learn it but look despite decades of school my spelling and grammar are atrocious because habits don’t change easily and no one is even forcing me to study or anything now. On top of it, like it or not for the internet folks, it has no bearing in the outside world which is still basically jugging along at its own pace. It will over time for sure but it won’t happen as quickly as early adopters would like. Also I pretty much don’t like any type of censorship of fictinoal things. Reality and fiction are two different things to me. Although modern ability to fake things is making identifying something as real as tough. I don’t want claims of it being high end fakes as letting folks get away with crimes.
I think telling someone your pronouns is fine, and if you tell me I will make an attempt to use them (I will remember exactly as well as I will remember your name, which is to say at least till the moment I meet the next person). I have NEVER met anyone who had a problem with this system, and I run in circles that have a very much above-average amount of gender stuff going on.
And if you DO get upset because I didn’t proactively ask for your pronouns, instead of just telling me, then we’re really not going to be talking much anyway.
Which is pretty much how I feel. Its fine if someone gives pronouns and I will do my best with it but it was not something historically I had to sorta tag people with so its a significant mental load comparatively. Its like all of a sudden having to remember everyones favorite cake or ice cream as a matter of course. That being said it being in a signature line of the email makes that pretty arbitrary but that being said its kinda annoying to have to find emails from people you talk to to see what the thing is for them. Don’t get me started on people who don’t use or ditch their signature in communications.
Whaddaya mean by “fictional” in this context?
Your comment basically says that society progresses at its own steady pace, and people demanding more rights and societal progress are impatient and wasting their time. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how society evolves. It’s not an automatism, it is the direct result of people raising their voices and demanding rights. There is no progress without these efforts. So yes, their demands are currently unachievable - by definition. It’s not a bug, it’s not a mistake, it’s a necessity.
Im not sure if you think my thing was one thing. The first part was about expectations around changing societal norms and folks catching up with language and stuff but the last several lines where about censorship. So when it comes to fiction I don’t like anything being censored. Like there is this anime from way back. This guy finds a gun and he goes on a rape rampage and I think in the end kills himself but its been a long time. It was graphic and disturbing to say the least. It is something that there are certainly people if they were aware of it would want it banned. I do actually think it was trying to say something about guns though as well as maybe human demons and such
Respectfully, HubertManne, it seems like you have not really thought about this topic very deeply from a perspective other than your own yet.
I myself am old enough that I can appreciate your comment that “my whole life sex and gender terms were one and the same,” but many things change across the course of our lives, and “no one is even forcing me to study or anything now” is not a reason to stop learning and growing as a person.
If you are willing, I’d invite you to read this article on Minority Stress: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10712335/
Or, you might also read this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_stress , especially the section “Health outcomes among sexual minorities.”
Here is a snippet from the introduction of the first article:
====
Overview
The foundation of minority stress theory lies in the hypothesis that sexual minority health disparities are produced by excess exposure to social stress faced by sexual minority populations due to their stigmatized social status (relative to heterosexual populations). Since its introduction, which focused on sexual minorities, minority stress theory has been expanded to include gender minorities [3–5] in particular describing the role of gender non-affirmation as a stressor for transgender and nonbinary people [6].
Minority stress is distinguished from general stress—stress that all people may experience—by its origin in prejudice and stigma. Thus, a stressor, such as losing one’s job, could be a general stressor or a minority stressor depending on whether it was motivated by prejudice against sexual and gender minority people as opposed to, for example, economic downturns that impact all people regardless of sexual and gender identity.
Meyer [2] described both distal and proximal stress processes. Distal stressors include stressors that originate from people or institutions that impact the LGBT person. These include discriminatory policies and laws [7] acute major life events (e.g., losing a job, being victimized by violence) [8], chronic stressors (e.g., living in poverty) [9], more minor, “everyday” experiences of discrimination or microaggressions (e.g., being treated unfairly or with disrespect) [10], or even non-events—expected positive experiences or events that were thwarted due to stigma and prejudice [11].
Proximal stressors arise from a socialization process in which sexual and gender minority people learn to reject themselves for being LGBT (internalized stigma) [12,13], develop expectations to be stigmatized due to awareness of prevailing social stigma (expectations of rejection) [14], and/or hide their LGBT identity as a way to protect themselves against distal minority stressors (identity concealment) [15]. Concealment may be protective in some environments, but it also limits access to social support and affirmation, complicating its role in minority stress theory [15].
Collectively, these minority stressors constitute the excess stress burden that places sexual and gender minority people at greater risk for negative health outcomes compared with cisgender straight people. Against these stressors, there are individual- and group-level coping mechanisms that can reduce the negative impact of minority stress. Thus, the overall health impact in the minority stress model is determined by the negative impact of stressful experiences and the ameliorative impact of coping, social support, and resilience.
Of course we continue to learn and grow but we do that in many ways. I also have a complaint that the us has a strange kinda pull you up by the bootstratps where everyone should be able to sorta figure out everything. kinda have to be a doctor, lawyers, accountant, mechanic, general contrator, etc. and does not seem to recognize that there is a limit to cognitive load. Im not really interested in putting a whole lot of effort in here and over time I will passively take things in over time but yeah im not looking to read articles on it. Things will change but its not going to be a massive shift all of a sudden. Honestly that is something I see a lot of today (online) and expectation of massive revolution level change and if it does not happen a complete unappreciation and actually abandonment of incremental change which I think is kinda kill us in the present.
People have the right to define themselves however they want. Likewise, people have the right not to share those determinations.
If others have the right to see themselves however they want, I have the right to see themselves however I want too. Reciprocity works like that.
Pretty much yeah. I agree with another reply that you try your best to accomodate folks but I also have habits.
Thank you. I thought I was alone. Like, I’m not trying to be an asshole, but you’re kind of demanding a lot of a broken drunk brain that doesn’t give a shit, I’ve got problems of my own…