• imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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      9 months ago

      Let me explain. Anything below 0F is really cold for a human, and anything above 100F is really hot. The Fahrenheit scale was built around human biology.

      0C isn’t even that cold, and 100C is literally instant death. Thus, Celsius is less applicable to the human experience and more applicable to the physical properties of water. The typical range of human scale temperatures is like -10 to 40 degrees on the Celsius scale? Makes no sense.

      Kelvin is the most scientifically objective scale, but also the least intuitive for humans, because absolute zero is completely outside our frame of reference.

      So it’s easily demonstrable that Fahrenheit is how people feel, Celsius is how water feels, and Kelvin is how molecules feel.

      Be forewarned that I am willing to die on this hill, and any challenges to my position will result in increasingly large walls of text until you have conceded the point 😤

      main arguments from below

      Celsius is adequate because it’s based on water, and all life on earth is also based on water, so it’s not totally out of our wheelhouse. But for humans specifically I think Fahrenheit is the clear answer.

      One point that many may overlook is that most of us here are relatively smart and educated. There are a good number of people on this planet who just aren’t very good with numbers. Obviously a genius could easily adapt their mind to Kelvin or whatever.

      You have to use negative numbers more frequently with Celsius > Celsius has a less intuitive frame of reference

      Each Celsius degree is nearly two Fahrenheit degrees > Celsius is less granular

      The reason I argue the more granular Fahrenheit is more intuitive is because a one degree change should intuitively be quite minor. But since you only have like 40 or 50 degrees to describe the entire gamut of human experiences with Celsius, it blends together a bit too much. I know that people will say to use decimals, but its the same flaw as negative numbers. It’s simply unintuitive and cumbersome.

      B) 66F is room temperature. Halfway between freezing (32F) and 100F.

      the intuition is learned and not natural.

      All scales have to be learned, obviously. It’s far easier to create intuitive anchorpoints in a 0-100 system than a -18 to 38 system. Thus, Fahrenheit is more intuitive for the average person.

      I should note that if you are a scientist, the argument completely changes. If you are doing experiments and making calcualtions across a much wider range of temperatures, Celsius and Kelvin are much more intuitive. But we are talking about the average human experience, and for that situation, I maintain Fahrenheit supremacy


      Final edit: Well, I got what I asked for. I think I ended up making some pretty irrefutable points with these two last ones though. Once again, math saves the day. If somebody wants to continue the discussion make another thread and tag me because this is a bit much for science memes.

      further arguments

      It’s not about the specific numbers, but the range that they cover. It’s about the relation of the scale to our lived experience. Hypothetically, if you wanted to design a temperature scale around our species, you would assign the range of 0-100 to the range that would be the most frequently utilized, because those are the shortest numbers. It’s not an absolute range, but the middle of a bell curve which covers 95% of practical scenarios that people encounter. It doesn’t make any sense to start that range at some arbitrary value like 1000 or -18.

      When the temperature starts to go above the human body temperature, most humans cannot survive in those environments. Thus, they would have little reason to describe such a temperature. Celsius wastes many double digit numbers between 40-100 that are rarely used. Instead, it forces you to use more negative numbers.

      This winter, many days were in the 10s and 20s where I live. Using Celsius would have been marginally more inconvenient in those scenarios, which happen every winter. This is yet another benefit of Fahrenheit, it has a set of base 10 divisions that can be easily communicated, allowing for a convenient level of uncertainty when describing a temperature.

      the end is nigh

      Generally -40 to 40 are the extremes of livable areas.

      Sure, water is a really good system and it works well.

      And for F that range is -40 to 104. See how you get 64 extra degrees of precision and nearly all of them are double digit numbers? No downside.

      Furthermore F can use its base 10 system to describe useful ranges of temperature such as the 20s, 60s, etc. So you have 144 degrees instead of just 80, and you also have the option to utilize a more broad 16 degree scale that’s also built in.

      You might say that Celsius technically also has an 8 degree scale(10s, 30s), but I would argue that the range of 10 degrees Celsius is too broad to be useful in the same way. In order to scale such that 0C is water freezing and 100C boiling, it was necessary for the units to become larger and thus the 10C shorthand is much less descriptive than the 10F shorthand, at least for most human purposes.

      • KISSmyOS@feddit.de
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        9 months ago

        100C is literally instant death.

        Laughs in Finnish (while sipping beer in a 100C Sauna)

      • Ender of Games@sh.itjust.works
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        9 months ago

        The Fahrenheit scale was built around human biology.

        Nope, it was built around the highest and lowest extremes some dude could create in his room. Not based on human biology in the slightest. Don’t repeat this false information.

        0C isn’t even that cold, and 100C is literally instant death.

        Yeah, but counter argument, who gives a shit? The “meme” doesn’t say anything remotely close to “from 0 to 100”. I don’t know why you are under the impression that these scales become inaccurate if you leave the 0-100 range. I live in a region that frequents -40C to +40C over a year- that’s centered on zero, so it’s already better for “how humans feel” than being centered on 32 and pretending there is some cosmic/celestial/god ordained reason for it.

        Kelvin is the most scientifically objective scale, but also the least intuitive for humans…

        Still no one giving a shit- the “meme” doesn’t remotely even suggest anything related to this.

        Be forewarned that I am willing to die on this hill

        I don’t know why you sign this off with “I’m an obnoxious twat”, but I’m perfectly happy with using the block function if the threat is real.

        • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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          9 months ago

          A) Fahrenheit has an appropriate level of granularity for humans

          B) Fahrenheit has an intuitive frame of reference for humans

          Celsius and Kelvin do not.

          I don’t want to fight about this I just think it’s actually true, and I also think Europeans get insanely defensive about stuff like this for no reason.

          • FiskFisk33@startrek.website
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            9 months ago

            A) Fahrenheit has an appropriate level of granularity for humans

            B) Fahrenheit has an intuitive frame of reference for humans

            true.

            Celsius […] do not.

            false.

            Europeans get insanely defensive about stuff like this for no reason.

            Be forewarned that I am willing to die on this hill, and any challenges to my position will result in increasingly large walls of text until you have conceded the point 😤

            • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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              9 months ago

              Thoughts?

              spoiler

              Generally -40 to 40 are the extremes of livable areas.

              Sure, water is a really good system and it works well.

              And for F that range is -40 to 104. See how you get 64 extra degrees of precision and nearly all of them are double digit numbers? No downside.

              Furthermore F can use its base 10 system to describe useful ranges of temperature such as the 20s, 60s, etc. So you have 144 degrees instead of just 80, and you also have the option to utilize a more broad 16 degree scale that’s also built in.

              You might say that Celsius technically also has an 8 degree scale(10s, 30s), but I would argue that the range of 10 degrees Celsius is too broad to be useful in the same way. In order to scale such that 0C is water freezing and 100C boiling, it was necessary for the units to become larger and thus the 10C shorthand is much less descriptive than the 10F shorthand, at least for most human purposes.

              • FiskFisk33@startrek.website
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                9 months ago

                copy pasting now are we? here was my response to the same copied comment:

                but I would argue that the range of 10 degrees Celsius is too broad to be useful in the same way.

                As you might imagine I completely disagree.

                For my purposes 20’s, 30’s, negative 10’s and so on is perfectly good, and I would describe my purposes as human.

                Again, this is based on your, and my, learned reference points. Of course you feel the scale of the farenheit is better suited for describing your life, those are your learned reference points.

                I have my own learned reference points based on the Celsius scale I grew up with and, suprise suprise, to me they’re superior.

                • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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                  9 months ago

                  copy pasting now are we?

                  You replied to me on multiple different threads, so I didn’t realize you were the same person. Generally if you’re serious about a debate, it’s best to keep things to one comment chain. Otherwise you’re just kinda yelling at somebody.

          • uienia@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Unlike Americans, celsius and kelvin users are not afraid of decimals, which fullfills all your graularity needs if you have them. But mostly it isn’t even needed because you literally cannot feel the difference.

          • eldain@feddit.nl
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            9 months ago

            A) So is Celsius, you do everything in double digits until you turn on your oven.

            B) If 50F was actually room temperature (the middle of too hot and too cold), I could agree. The fact that is is not means for me the intuition is learned and not natural. And that I have to learn a few anchorpoints to convert my own intuition when I ever visit the US.

            • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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              9 months ago

              Idk how your A relates to mine, if anything that’s more about the frame of reference, not the granularity. It’s good that you rarely have to use triple digits, but you do have to use negative numbers quite frequently.

              You have to use negative numbers more frequently with Celsius > Celsius has a less intuitive frame of reference

              Each Celsius degree is nearly two Fahrenheit degrees > Celsius is less granular

              The reason I argue the more granular Fahrenheit is more intuitive is because a one degree change should intuitively be quite minor. But since you only have like 40 or 50 degrees to describe the entire gamut of human experiences with Celsius, it blends together a bit too much. I know that people will say to use decimals, but its the same flaw as negative numbers. It’s simply unintuitive and cumbersome.

              B) 66F is room temperature. Halfway between freezing (32F) and 100F.

              the intuition is learned and not natural.

              All scales have to be learned, obviously. It’s far easier to create intuitive anchorpoints in a 0-100 system than a -18 to 38 system. Thus, Fahrenheit is more intuitive for the average person.

              I should note that if you are a scientist, the argument completely changes. If you are doing experiments and making calcualtions across a much wider range of temperatures, Celsius and Kelvin are much more intuitive. But we are talking about the average human experience, and for that situation, I maintain Fahrenheit supremacy

              • accideath@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Your point about intuition is moot, imo, because if you didn’t grow up with F it’s just as unintuitive as C is to you.

                When you’re used to it the usage of decimals and negative numbers is neither complicated nor unintuitive because you’ve learned to know this intuitively for your whole life.

                I could argue, that freezing temps outside being below 0 are unintuitive because it’s obvious to me that negative temps mean it’s literally freezing cold. That’s intuitive for me because I‘ be used that my entire life. Same as room temperature being 20°C. It just makes sense to me because I‘ve always know it that way.

                Your “intuitive anchor points” 32 or 66 or whatever are completely nonsensical and unintuitive to someone whose brain is wired in Celsius. Because we don’t think in -18 to 38 but rather -20 to 40, if you want to think of it like that (or -40 to 20 I suppose, if you live somewhere where it’s colder). But in all honesty, in my day to day life, I don’t think about that, because I just know what a celsius value means intuitively.

                Fahrenheit is more intuitive for the average American, not the average person.

                • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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                  9 months ago

                  I don’t think you’re taking into account that the average person is really bad at math. There’s a lot of people around the world that are illiterate.

                  Anything can be intuitive if you’re intelligent enough. But when something is described as intuitive, that implies that it can be easily understood. Put it this way, if F is 1/10 difficulty, C is 2/10 and Kelvin is 5/10.

                  Would you also argue that Kelvin is intuitive?

                  Just because Celsius works perfectly fine doesn’t mean that Fahrenheit doesn’t make more intuitive sense.

                  • reev@sh.itjust.works
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                    9 months ago

                    I’m sorry, but if you go out on a cold day and see a barrel of water with ice on the top, you immediately know it’s freezing cold and we’re in the negatives. Water freezing being 0 is a solid, objective anchor point.

                    “When it feels cold” will vary from someone that lives in a generally warm climate to someone that lives in a colder climate but water will freeze at 0. That means the warm and cold people can base their range around that and intuitively understand how far or above or below 0 the extreme hot or cold areas are. Generally -40 to 40 are the extremes of livable areas.

      • efstajas@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        The typical range of human scale temperatures is like -10 to 40 degrees on the Celsius scale? Makes no sense.

        But it makes so much sense though. Because it’s anchored around the freezing and boiling points of water, which is a universal experience we can all relate to. 0°C outside? It’s freezing.

        Fahrenheit as “the human scale” is what makes no fucking sense. You end up with the same exact problem where your specific range of “human scale temperatures” does not line up with 0-100°F at all. But it’s also not anchored to water’s behavior. So it just ends up being arbitrary.

        • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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          9 months ago

          But it makes so much sense though. Because it’s anchored around the freezing and boiling points of water, which is a universal experience we can all relate to. 0°C outside? It’s freezing.

          It does make sense. But no, I cannot personally relate to being H2O and freezing into a block of ice or evaporating into the air.

          As a human, I can relate to when I feel cold, and when I feel hot. And a scale where I feel hot at 30 degrees and cold at -10 is not even remotely intuitive.

          You end up with the same exact problem where your specific range of “human scale temperatures” does not line up with 0-100°F at all.

          Human scale temperatures do line up with 0-100 on the Fahrenheit scale. Certainly much better than 0-100 on the Celsius scale. How are you even disputing that???

          • tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip
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            9 months ago

            Of course what you grew up with makes the most sense, but everyone down voting you for saying 0–100 makes more sense in a vacuum than -20–40 always makes me laugh in these kinds of threads.

      • brb@sh.itjust.works
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        9 months ago

        -10C or 10C: Pretty comfortable

        -20C or 20C: Starting to feel bit cold or hot

        -30C or 30C: Uncomfortably cold or hot

        -40C or 40C: Almost painfully cold or hot

        How exactly is -40F to 104F better than that for human purposes?

      • The Octonaut@mander.xyz
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        9 months ago

        “Fahrenheit is how people feel” only makes sense if said people have never used another scale. You know how 100F “feels” because that’s what you use. If you used Celsius you’d know how that scale feels instead, and be used to using the more useful scale generally.

        See also: people who think they don’t have an accent.

        • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de
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          9 months ago

          You know what? I just enjoy being able to set a thermostat to a comfortable level by just using whole numbers instead of resorting do decimal places.

          • rainynight65@feddit.de
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            9 months ago

            If half a degree Celsius makes the difference between being comfortable or uncomfortable for you, then you have bigger problems than being able to use whole numbers.

              • rainynight65@feddit.de
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                9 months ago

                The irony of someone not wanting to use decimal points for their temperature setting isn’t lost on me, when that same person has to resort to fractions to measure anything thinner than a door.

              • ThirdWorldOrder@lemm.ee
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                9 months ago

                Europeans don’t have thermostats because they don’t have AC. You’re speaking elvish to them.

                Edit: Relax Europeans, it’s a snarky comment

                • Technofrood@feddit.uk
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                  9 months ago

                  Fairly sure the thermostat in my European house is in fact a thermostat. AC may not be common in homes here but heating sure is and needs a thermostat.

        • ericbomb@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          100 f is pretty close to average body temperature.

          So above 100 means your surroundings are hotter than your body is unless you have a fever.

          I think that’s an okay land mark.

      • then_three_more@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        It only works if you grew up in a country that uses Fahrenheit. I didn’t, so to me Celsius is how I feel. I’ve no idea whether 20 f is jeans and a t-shirt weather, or if I should be getting my coat. 20 c however I know that as long as it’s not windy I’ll be good with jeans and a t-shirt, but that it’s still a little too cool to get out my shorts.

      • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        9 months ago

        You mean other than the fact only a tiny proportion of people in the world use Fahrenheit?

        • damnthefilibuster@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          It didn’t say which people. Also, I’m from South East Asia and have used Fahrenheit my entire life as a means to measure body temperature using mercury thermometers during fever time. It’s so much easier to say whether a fever is above 100 or not and then how much above 100.

          So people do feel in Fahrenheit. A fuck ton of them do.

          Yes, I know the meme is about the weather but… take a chill pill and look at your prejudices.

      • FiskFisk33@startrek.website
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        9 months ago

        Celcius is how I “feel”, because that’s the scale I’ve learned and can relate to.
        Farenheit is what you “feel” for the same reason.

        It’s not because one is intrinsically better linked to our bodies.

        • Ech@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          You’re missing the point. The scale is what matters, not your personal experience or unit preference. From 0-100 F is right about what a human could be expected to tolerate without much help. In C, that’s -18-38. That’s a much more limited range in terms of human tolerance, but it works great for water, which would be 0-100 C. The scale doesn’t translate as well to K, but it does end at 0, so there’s that.

          • FiskFisk33@startrek.website
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            9 months ago

            Yet people live in negative farenheit conditions.

            Try telling a northern siberian, who commonly see winter temperatures between -50 and -100 fahrenheit, that 0f is right about the limit for a human to tolerate…

            • Ech@lemm.ee
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              9 months ago

              You think those people go out without thick, warm clothes? I get you’re really committed to arguing for C against people not even arguing against it, but come on now. You know what I’m saying. It’s not a particularly difficult concept to grasp.

              • FiskFisk33@startrek.website
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                9 months ago

                You wouldn’t tolerate 0 farenheit in the nude either.
                You wouldn’t tolerate 10 farenheit for extended periods either.

                I know what you are saying and I disagree. I am not trying to say celsius is better than farenheit, I’m saying farenheit is not in any way intrinsically more human than celsius.

                0 farenheit was chosen because that’s the temperature of salty ice, The lowest temperature they could easily achieve at the time, it has nothing to do with what humans can and can’t endure.

                • Ech@lemm.ee
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                  9 months ago

                  Whatever mate. I’m not here to argue you out of whatever tunnel your stuck in. Good luck with that.

          • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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            9 months ago

            From 0-100 F is right about what a human could be expected to tolerate without much help.

            The fuck does this mean

          • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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            9 months ago

            Exactly. And you’re not even pointing out that the human frame of reference starts at -18 Celsius! So a significant portion of the time, you’re going to have to use negative numbers to describe the temperature.

            Edit

            To clarify, I am not arguing that Fahrenheit is a better scale in general. I’m simply saying that it’s human-centric. Celsius is perfectly usable for human purposes, and also much more useful than Fahrenheit for scientific purposes. I’m just explaining how the meme makes sense to me

            • FiskFisk33@startrek.website
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              9 months ago

              the human frame of reference starts at -18 Celsius!

              That makes no sense to me at all. what frame of reference? what happens at -18? Ive been out in temperatures both above and below that, yes its cold as fuck, but nothing special happens? If we move a bit further north here they’d call me a wuss, and tell me real cold starts at -30.

              you’re going to have to use negative numbers to describe the temperature.

              I find that really useful actually! Our world is made of water. In winter time here, temperatures above 0 means the snow will be soggy and wet, negative temperatures means it won’t.

              if the temperature was above 0 but has now dipped into the negatives, beware of ice when walking or driving.

              You can use all the arguments you want, the truth is either system is perfectly useful for human day-to-day use if you are used to it.

              The best system, for you, will always be the one you grew up with

              • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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                9 months ago

                Don’t play dumb. We’re talking about the range of temperatures an average person experiences in their day-to-day lives.

                In winter time here, temperatures above 0 means the snow will be soggy and wet, negative temperatures means it won’t.

                This might blow your mind but you can do the same thing with Fahrenheit. Just look for the number 32 instead of 0.

                You can use all the arguments you want, the truth is either system is perfectly useful for human day-to-day use if you are used to it.

                The best system, for you, will always be the one you grew up with

                I never said otherwise and I totally agree.

                However they are different systems and they do have pros and cons. Fahrenheit is more suitable for daily life while Celsius is more suitable for science.

                • CEbbinghaus@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  Sorry im clearly not your average person experiencing >38° on a regular basis. There are plenty of humans that exist in climates that fall entirely outside of what you Americans consider “normal”. Which is why “-18 - 38 is the ‘normal’ range for an average person” is such an American thing to say. You took your own climate and projected it across the world.

                  Personally I like to go with the system that makes the most sense for 70% of earth’s surface and 64% of a human body.

                  • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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                    9 months ago

                    What? -18C to 38C is a massive range. Only a very small percentage of people would experience temperatures outside that range for most the year.

                • FiskFisk33@startrek.website
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                  9 months ago

                  Just look for the number 32 instead of 0.

                  Now you are almost arguing against yourself, I can use the same argument about body temperature, just look for 37 instead of 100

                  However they are different systems and they do have pros and cons.

                  And this is a pro for me where I live.

                  I never said otherwise and I totally agree.

                  Fahrenheit is more suitable for daily life

                  These don’t square.
                  Celsius and farenheit is just as suitable for daily life. You learn your important reference points and go from there.

                  • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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                    9 months ago

                    Generally -40 to 40 are the extremes of livable areas.

                    Sure, water is a really good system and it works well.

                    And for F that range is -40 to 104. See how you get 64 extra degrees of precision and nearly all of them are double digit numbers? No downside.

                    Furthermore F can use its base 10 system to describe useful ranges of temperature such as the 20s, 60s, etc. So you have 144 degrees instead of just 80, and you also have the option to utilize a more broad 16 degree scale that’s also built in.

                    You might say that Celsius technically also has an 8 degree scale(10s, 30s), but I would argue that the range of 10 degrees Celsius is too broad to be useful in the same way. In order to scale such that 0C is water freezing and 100C boiling, it was necessary for the units to become larger and thus the 10C shorthand is much less descriptive than the 10F shorthand, at least for most human purposes.