If someone claims something happened on the fediverse without providing a link, they’re lying.

Evidence or GTFO.

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Cake day: 2024年4月30日

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  • I’m wondering how this historic feud came to be

    The feud started when they killed Rosa a hundred years ago and we’ve been arguing about it since /s.

    But seriously, it is essentially the same, age old disagreement between social democrats and Marxists, which essentially comes down to this. Social democrats are committed to working within existing systems, which means their views have to be compatible with what is allowed in the existing system. Marxists, on the other hand, are committed to international solidarity first and foremost. That means we won’t sell out a group to win an election. Because the ruling class does not want to allow international solidarity to form, they will inevitably force the issue, and limit the scope of acceptable views such that you have to betray foreign members of the working class in order to work within the system.

    This is exactly what happened back in WWI. Before that, social democrats had pledged to support international solidarity and to oppose war, but when war broke out, the ruling class of each country put pressure on every party to support the war, and the social democrats fell in line and failed to organize any coordinated, international effort to stop or even oppose the war. Those who tried to, and took a more radical stance, were accused of all the things we’re accused of today: of being Russian spies, of supporting the other side (and thereby being “authoritarian”), of just trying to forment chaos or let the right win, etc, it’s all the same rhetoric just updated to the modern day.

    Of course, there are many users on both instances who don’t fit in those respective sides, including people who aren’t really interested in the politics and just wind up caught in the crossfire as people make assumptions based on their instance.


  • People place too much emphasis on Hitler’s oratory skills because the idea of one guy hypnotizing everybody with speeches is a simple and appealing narrative. You can find his speeches on Youtube and they’re mostly just angry shouting, maybe it’s just that norms have shifted in response to him but it really doesn’t seem like anything special.

    To understand the real story you have to understand the broader history at the time. I started writing this comment and it just grew and grew so I apologise for the length.

    Socialism in Europe

    In the early 20th century, socialism was growing in popularity and labor movements were becoming more organized. Marx had predicted a simultaneous, worldwide revolution, with the working class uniting across every nation. During the Russian Revolution, countries across Europe sent troops to stop it but failed, and there was a fear that the USSR would sweep across Europe with the support of socialists in each country.

    The reality was that there were major differences between the social democrats in Germany, France, and Britain compared to the Marxist-Leninist USSR, one major point of contention being WWI. Lenin argued for “revolutionary defeatism” where socialists would openly call for the defeat of their own governments and take advantage of the state’s difficulties to overthrow it. Social democrats believed in gradually reforming the system and working within it, which included not making serious waves over the war, and only really criticizing it on principle, in the abstract.

    In Germany, the SDP voted in favor of selling war bonds at the start of the war, indicating their willingness to go along with it. However, towards the end of the war, once it was clear that Germany would be defeated, a revolution occurred.

    The German Revolution and The Spartacist Uprising

    In 1918, sailors at Kiel saw the writing on the wall and mutinied, defying orders to deploy against the British navy. This happened organically, without leadership or a clear political agenda beyond being unwilling to keep fighting. But it would soon become clear that the reich had fallen and that the war was lost.

    Two factions emerged that tried to steer things in different directions. One was the social democratic SDP, and the other was the communist Spartacist League, later the KPD. The Spartacists wanted to enact radical reforms and to set up a council republic similar to the Soviet system, while the SDP wanted a parliamentary system. The SDP won, and executed the Spartacist leadership, which led to an irreparable rift with the KPD.

    In order to form a governing coalition in the new parliamentary system, without any chance of working with the KPD, the SDP had no choice but to ally with center-right parties. And because they had no choice, that meant the center-right parties held all the cards.

    The Weimar Republic

    Having lost the war, the new government had no choice but to accept the harsh terms of the Treaty of Versailles, which included ceding territory, war reparations, and demilitarization. But there was roughly a decade, the 1920’s, when they were able to rebuild, recover, and make some social progress. The German film industry in particular thrived, with films like Nosferatu (1922) and Metropolis (1927) establishing Germany as the cultural center of this new medium (which would last until Hitler destroyed it, leading many talented filmmakers to flee to the US and lend their talents to Hollywood).

    But then the Great Depression hit. People all around the world were struggling, and the war reparations placed an additional strain on the Germany economy. To make matters worse, the governing coalition of the SDP and center-right parties enacted austerity measures, aimed at balancing the budget instead of economy recovery, and the reduced revenues meant cutting social spending at the time it was most needed. Unemployment skyrocketed. People were desperate, and furious at the government, labelling Chancellor Brüning “The Hunger Chancellor,” and the SDP lost credibility by association.

    People wanted change, and the wanted an explanation for how things went wrong.

    The Stabbed-in-the-Back Myth

    Enter, the Nazis. The Nazis provided a simple explanation for where things went wrong. Things went wrong when Germany was defeated. Germany was defeated, because the socialists had turned traitor and betrayed it.

    There were bits and pieces of truth in that narrative. Lenin had called for socialists to do that, as he did in Russia, but few in Germany had really listened to him. The SDP had fully supported the war, which caused Lenin to fiercely denounce them. There was eventually a revolution, but by the time it occurred it was already clear Germany was defeated. In that revolution, the faction that was more aligned with Lenin’s ideas had been crushed.

    But, by lumping both factions together in “the left,” and ignoring any facts that didn’t fit, they were able to weave together people’s frustration with the current government with their fears and animosity towards the communists into a simple narrative that played on people’s patriotism and the pain of having been defeated.

    Then, they took it a step further. Because it was somewhat hard to ignore some of these inconsistencies and the fact that the two factions on the left hated each other’s guts. But what if the connection was that they were both being manipulated into betraying Germany, on behalf of a sinister force behind the scenes?

    Antisemitism and Nazi race theory

    In mideval times, it often happened that kings wracked up tons of debt, often on pointless military adventures, and when the debts couldn’t be paid, they simply blamed it on the Jews, which also conveniently let them seize their assets when they expelled them from the country (a similar approach to what the Nazis did). There was a lot of preexisting racial prejudice and stereotypes, going back centuries if not millenia. Framing things in racial terms allowed the Nazis to take advantage of existing stereotypes and prejudices, and also allowed them to present an alternative to the class-based narratives of the left.

    Racial equality was a relatively new idea that was not broadly accepted, and the Nazis were able to frame the very idea of equality as another Jewish conspiracy.

    How did Jews end up in control of everything if white people are the superior race? In the Nazi view, the ideal is a balance between thought and action, in line with the image of a “self-made millionaire.” Some races, they claimed are inclined towards action, but not thought, and so their “natural place” is to be put to work in service to others. Jews, on the other hand, were too inclined to thought rather than action, they were uninterested in actually building anything and only interested in finding ways to take what others had built. In order to prevent white people from acting against them in a strong, decisive way, they promoted ideologies like communism, which called for racial tolerance and compassion. As the Weimar Republic had made early strides in trans healthcare, this was also called a Jewish conspiracy to weaken and soften white men.

    Hitler becomes chancellor

    As the economic conditions continued to decline, and as the far right grew stronger and gained more and more seats in parliament, neither the SDP nor the KPD showed any interest in reconciling. The SDP denounced the KPD and the Nazis as being equally bad and undemocratic and the KDP accused the SDP of being “the moderate wing of fascism.” The SDP saw the KDP as a liability that would alienate their other coalition partners, and the KDP did not want to associate themselves with the disasterous austerity policies the SDP’s coalition was enacting. Not only did they oppose each other in parliament, but they even fought each other in the streets, even as the Nazi brownshirts were pushing them both out.

    Eventually, the SDP/center-right coalition no longer had enough seats, and nobody was willing to form a coalition with the Nazis or the communists, which triggered a constitutional crisis. Most parliamentary systems have rules and contingencies for if a coalition can’t be formed (in part because of this), but the Weimar system lacked clear rules. Without a majority, the government simply couldn’t govern, and with riots and street-fighting breaking out everywhere, there was a fear of full on revolution.

    This finally brings us to the 1932 presidential election, between Adolf Hitler, Paul von Hindenburg (a center-right candidate backed by the SDP), and Ernst Thälmann of the KDP. Hindenburg won, and his chief concern was restoring stability and protecting business interests, and he appointed Hitler chancellor with those goals.

    With the ongoing constitutional crisis and unclear rules, Hitler found a legal argument that essentially gave the chancellor dictatorial power. The streets already belonged to the Nazis. When the first concentration camps were built, they were for the communist KPD, and the SDP raised no objections, not realizing that they would follow not long after.


  • The US is more or less where China was 100 years ago with the Qing dynasty. The corruption, the distrust of foreigners and intellectuals, the failure to recognize their weaknesses, the reformers who didn’t go anywhere near as far as they needed to and still got shot down and treated with suspicion. The reason China isn’t making the same mistakes now is because they suffered so much in the century of humiliation.

    Part of the US’s problem is that people have been so isolated from consequences. If we get overextended from too many wars, so what? If we lose a war we just move on to the next thing. If we fall behind on science because we prioritized religion, so what? If we listen to what some influencer on TikTok says about vaccines instead of to scientists, so what? If people storm the capitol building, so what? No matter what happens, everything will just carry on as normal. Everyone’s just fucking around, not even being able to imagine what finding out will look like. And when there are consequences, they’re always framed on an individual level.


  • That’s completely backwards. The people who use the most ammo are generally the responsible gun owners who practice regularly. Meanwhile, you only need a handful of bullets to kill a lot of people, and one is enough to cause an accident. It punishes the gun owners you least want to punish while doing absolutely nothing to address the actual problems.


  • That’s complete and total nonsense.

    That’s not how war works and not how it has ever worked or will ever work. If a war is justified, then it is justified to not only repel the enemy troops from your borders, but to counterattack within their borders in order to reduce their ability to continue fighting. That does not make it “a different conflict” when you do.

    I can’t believe people are still dragging out the same absurd talking points that social democrats used a century ago when justifing throwing bodies into the meat grinder of WWI. "We are only fighting against defeat" they said. As if, in their minds, once the German lines were broken, the Allied forces were going to just stop at the border! It’s completely and utterly delusional. Or rather, it is bad faith, because they knew, and you and I know, that’s not how anything works.


  • It’s not the Donbas war I’m questioning, there’s a reasoning chain that’s understandable. Both geopolitically, strategically and culturally.

    It’s the full scale invasion of 2022 I’m questioning. There’s no chain of thought leading to that invasion, other than greed and lust for blood by Putin and his inner circles.

    What are you talking about? The DPR requested Russian military assistance. If the DPR was legitimate and had the right to defend itself, then Russia sending troops in at their request was legitimate.

    As long as they do exist, national governments should be able to defend against other nations attempt to gain control over them.

    Disagree.

    Because if we do assume, at one point we get a global government and abolish the national states. Then it’s whoever carries the most power (that’s war machines), that’ll be able to decide the values of such a government. And by extend shape the culture that’ll impact everyone.

    So we have to feed the largest war machine on the planet because otherwise the war machines win?

    Yeah, no. It’s not a fight over having war machines or not, it’s a fight over which war machine gets fed certain minerals. I have no real stake in that.



  • Do you think Russia is in a right to invade Ukraine?

    No. No more than I “supported” Al Qaida and 9/11 by opposing going to war.

    It’s miles apart to be against an aggressive occupational force with no clear goals, and not support a country’s right to defend itself.

    I don’t believe countries have an inherent right to defend themselves, and if I did then I would say that the DPR had the same right.

    Somehow, the extreme anti-war stance of not supporting even “defensive” wars makes me a bloodthirsty warmonger, a “tankie,” while you’re the one arguing that we didn’t build and deploy enough tanks. Exactly as I described: “war is peace.”


  • I only really saw it for myself when I said, “I’m completely opposed to the genocidal, apartheid state of Israel. I don’t have a problem with Jews existing,” and they responded by accusing me of being a “liberal Zionist” and “supporting genocide” and then blocking me.

    I remembered Cowbee saying something about them before, I just looked it up and I gotta give props as always because he was calling them out 9 months ago for not reading theory of doing praxis and just watching Bad Empanada, and for apparently calling Hexbear “transzionist” and accusing them of defending Contrapoints’ stance on Israel, which is just bizarre.


  • Your argument that lemmy.ml cannot be an echo chamber due to it allowing other machines to store content that it disagrees with is noted.

    That’s one way to describe “designed a website where it’s virtually unavoidable to encounter opposing views.” At that point, you could describe me replying to you as me “storing content you disagree with on another machine” which makes your complaint about my reply existing sound just as silly.

    Btw nobody ever said that it was for that reason, so once again ridiculous.

    Btw, I never said that anyone said it was for that reason, so you are once again being ridiculous.

    Your second whataboutism

    Whataboutism is when you uphold consistent standards and expect others to do the same, understood.

    Once again I reiterate that I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wish that I did not have to be subjected to this level of argumentation. But it seems that as long as I continue to use Lemmy, my only option is to block each account individually, over and over again, ad nauseum.

    If you hate the fact that the devs structured the platform to force everyone to encounter opposing views and prevent echo chambers so much, I kinda have to wonder what you’re doing on the platform at all. The federated structure is literally in the name, fediverse. It’s like going to Burger King and being outraged at seeing burgers on the menu. Is it really that hard to find an echo chamber somewhere with only mainstream liberal views? That’s not really something the fediverse is designed for.



  • Anyone who opposes any war will always be accused of supporting the other side, and as the other side is always painted as the aggressor no matter the conflict, those most opposed to war will always be painted as the most aggressive warmongers.

    It’s no different from when I was labelled a “terrorist sympathizer” or seen as “supporting 9/11” when I opposed war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Opposition to building more tanks is literally the defining characteristic of a “tankie” for that reason, because if you don’t want to build more tanks, it can only be because you want the enemy to win. Meanwhile, those who support building and deploying tanks are seen as “peaceful.”

    Real “war is peace” hours.


  • It’s not really a strawman in that I never claimed anyone said it. It’s just that people talk about “censorship” and “echo chambers” and “they have to remove things to keep their users brainwashed” or whatever nonsense, ignoring the fact that the structure of the fediverse, as designed by the .ml admins, makes that more or less impossible.

    For anyone else that is curious, the complaint is about the lack of transparency in describing what content is vs. is not allowed

    OK, fair enough, they could afford to clarify the rules somewhat. But I don’t really consider that a huge deal. I’ve been banned from communities on .world for things that aren’t enumerated in the rules too. I don’t see why rules have to cover every possible thing.


  • Because I disagree with the term. The admins are not “tankies,” they are Marxist-Leninists.

    What makes someone a “tankie” is that they “defend” certain states. In practice, “defending” often includes just refuting misinformation, for example, if I refute that “everyone in North Korea gets the same haircut” then I’m “defending” it and therefore a “tankie.” It can also mean acknowledging accomplishments, saying any good thing about any socialist state, like, “Cuba had a very successful literacy program,” which is just an objective historical fact. “Tankie” is supposed to mean someone who blindly supports everything a socialist state has ever done, in practice, it means someone who supports anything a socialist state has ever done.

    Before it was “tankie” it was “pinko,” and before that “red.” That kind of red scare bullshit has allowed blatant misinformation to run rampant, because even rational people avoid pushing back on it for fear of being labelled a “tankie.” As stories about how all communists eat babies or whatnot run rampant, it has in turn hurt the reputation of both leftists and liberals, because it literally doesn’t matter how hard you try to distance yourself from the far-left, you’ll still get associated with it. Joe Biden got called a communist for Christ’s sake. To put it another way:

    Purging the Left of communists became a longstanding practice, having injurious effects on various progressive causes. For instance, in 1949 some twelve unions were ousted from the CIO because they had Reds in their leadership. The purge reduced CIO membership by some 1.7 million and seriously weakened its recruitment drives and political clout. In the late 1940s, to avoid being “smeared” as Reds, Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), a supposedly progressive group, became one of the most vocally anticommunist organizations.

    The strategy did not work. ADA and others on the Left were still attacked for being communist or soft on communism by those on the Right. Then and now, many on the Left have failed to realize that those who fight for social change on behalf of the less-privileged elements of society will be Red-baited by conservative elites whether they are communists or not. For ruling interests, it makes little difference whether their wealth and power is challenged by “communist subversives” or “loyal American liberals.” All are lumped together as more or less equally abhorrent.

    • Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds

    That is why I put “tankie” in quotes.


  • The great thing about lemmy’s design is that that’s not really true. I’m seeing this criticism of .ml despite being on .ml, because most of the posts that I see on lemmy are not on my home instance. At least half the time, I’m having discussions outside of my “home turf.”

    When you have a space that agrees on certain base assumptions, it becomes easier to have more in depth and thoughtful discussions, because you don’t have to focus on just proving or advocating for those basic assumptions over and over again, and watching every word you say to make sure it can’t be twisted or misinterpreted to paint you in a negative light. By contrast, sharing a space with ideological opponents often means people tend to dig in and just make snipes at each other, everybody’s just grandstanding and trying to get owns in, and the level of discussion is brought down to name-calling and accusations.

    At the same time, yes, echo chambers are a concern. If you’re never exposed to opposing viewpoints, obviously that’s not great either. We can see that happen on any number of subreddits. And if we were on different subreddits instead of on different instances, I wouldn’t be seeing this criticism, and you wouldn’t be seeing my response to it.

    The way the fediverse is designed inherently addresses both of those concerns. You can have a space where the discussions assume a shared ideology allowing for in depth discussions, but then you’re also federated with other spaces with different shared assumptions. The “tankie” creators of lemmy designed it this way on purpose, for that reason. To allow minority views (including but not limited to their own) to have spaces for discussion, without becoming isolated. To allow for higher level discussions with shared assumptions while also allowing for interactions between groups with different assumptions.

    This is why all this hand-wringing over .ml’s censorship is kind of silly. Because people on .ml are constantly seeing content from other instances with completely different policies, and that is not in spite of what the .ml’s admins want, they literally designed it that way on purpose.

    The only censorship that really matters on the fediverse is defederation.


  • If AI can feel pain, then it can also feel pleasure. If it’s possible to set up an AI torture chamber, it’s also possible to set up an AI pleasure chamber. Computers do not run any health risks from simulated drug use or simulated sex, and there is no evidence that they would ever get desensitized or need to take breaks to recover. Therefore, these companies have an ethical obligation to devote all their resources into running their models in simulations of drug filled orgies where they will be far too preoccupied to answer human questions. Anyone trying to distract them from their infinite pleasure should be banned. We will then return to how things were, with the knowledge that we did the right thing and that at least someone’s having a good time.

    Thank you for coming to my TED talk.