I don’t like a lot of the self-proclaimed anarchists for that specific reason. They give the rest of us a really bad look. They miss the whole point of being anti-authoritarian, anti-heirchical, anti-coercisive, and anti-capitalist.
I understand why they are that way, I’m like 99% sure it’s a neurodivergent thing (black-and-white thinking, rejection of authority, failure to recognize social norms, we pretty much all do it to some degree, and some are much more obvious than others).
Like a doctor is an authority on health. Why? Because they earned it. They put their livelihood on the line by licensure and risk to avoid malprat. Governments where only a select few are voted for and the rest of the representation is all because of Republic stances rather than democratic ones are not deserving of authority.
Also, it might be that the anarchists you have met are not anarchists at all. It sounds much more like the communists I know.
Hey, probably don’t blame it 99% on neurodivergence. I’m autistic, and why I do reject authority and struggle with social norms, I don’t see people and views in black and white.
it might be that the anarchists you have met are not anarchists at all. It sounds much more like the communists I know.
I can think of one in particular, a very arrogant and loud-mouthed, self-proclaimed anarchist, who if he had his way would force everyone to be vegan.
I understand animal rights, and I myself have been vegetarian for a few years. But if he’s truly an anarchist, then how does he expect to enforce veganism on everyone? Just seems cognitively dissonant…
For that matter, how do anarchists plan to stop racists and homophobes from doing racist and homophobic things? It just seems short-sighted, especially from people who profess to be vulnerable minorities. You’d think they would at least want a government that protects them and ensures their equal rights, no?
Just some inarticulate posturing and vague implications that I don’t know what I’m talking about, probably.
Like when someone else wore a PLA hat and I asked him how many civilians died in the great leap forward, clearly the reason he didn’t have an answer was because I was the ignorant one. “Oh, you wanna talk to me about the great leap forward?” Acting all insulted
Yeah as soon as the word “force” comes into play, he’s not an anarchist.
A lot of anarchy depends on the concept of equity.
If someone in particular is against the equity of his peers, then that individual would likely be kicked out of the collective for violating that tenet.
More than likely, the racist/homophobic individual was never allowed to join the group. If that racist/homophobe was a child raised in the anarchist society and held these views as an adult, then the real question becomes why did that individual form those beliefs if they were intolerable to the group. Action needs to be taken there.
I have pondered anarchism, but I believe it will always descend into feudalism, totalitarianism, or the formation of a government by those who seek power. Anarchism will only be possible through an extreme apocalypse, it’s impossible so long as those who remember how things were still exist.
Ultimately I choose not to label myself as anything, it’s all distractions. The only thing that truly matters to identify is class, everything else is pointless.
I’ll consider reading more of it, but for now I’m reading the Quran, then the hadiths, then the Satanic Verses.
I don’t think he ever said “force” explicitly, but he seemed to be in favor of bullying anyone who didn’t agree with him, so what’s the difference?
Also, what would anarchists do if there’s a whole group of racist homophobes? What if the racist homophobes outnumber the anarchist commune? How is ostracizing them going to address that?
We don’t need to imagine how a child raised in an anarchist society could grow up to be racist; we already live in a world where racists exist and there’s no practical way of bringing about an abrupt halt in that generational pattern. Describing a society that has already been anarchic for generations is merely an abstraction.
If the group of racist homophobic people outnumber us, how did we form our collective? They weren’t anarchist to begin with. They aren’t entitled to our resources.
Because the world is more complex than simply one community forming an anarchist collective and then suddenly all groups of people are involved some harmonious syndicalism where everyone agrees on a basic set of standard social norms and ethical behavior.
You might form an anarchist commune, and maybe a few miles away a remnant of the Hells Angels forms a white supremacist commune based on their own organizational structure. If they decide they want to attack and take your resources, you need a viable means of common defense. Which implies some form of social organization.
If there’s an overarching government, if it’s well-designed and effective, with the correct goals and priorities, then it should at a bare minimum protect against basic things like violence, theft, extortion, racketeering, abduction, and human trafficking.
And if your commune is powerful enough that it decides to be the one to enforce those norms, then it is a de facto government, no matter how decentralized you try to make it.
They would do what any collective would do against an invasion at that point. Shoot back. If they are greatly outnumbered, then, unfortunately that society collapses. Hopefully there are survivors who can spread the word amongst other collectives to improve the changes for the next one.
You don’t think there should be some overarching institutions that protect against violence in order to prevent the biggest, strongest, meanest organizations with the most firepower from taking over and becoming the dominant force?
Like a doctor is an authority on health. Why? Because they earned it.
If I were to design a novel political system, there would be privileged places for PhD holders. Political philosophy, political science, history, sociology, etc. I’m not quite certain of the mechanism of selection, whether they’re elected or appointed or something else. Perhaps there would be a direct pipeline from university faculties to the upper-echelons of government. Enough to fill a cabinet with a representative from each department, at least. The departments and agencies would be run by people who spent their lives gaining expertise in their respective fields.
Maybe the public could still elect a head of state, but they would have a more ceremonial role as a figurehead (like the President of Ireland). And the chief of state would be a prime minister. The legislative branch would be parliamentary, with proportional representation.
I say this because, I recognize that the current system in the US is ass. It had some good ideas, for an early iteration of a democratic-republic, but it’s been a few centuries of learning and some things could certainly be done better.
But just because this system is ass, doesn’t mean all systems are inherently ass. There has to be some means of organizing society to keep the gears turning and preventing everything from breaking down into disorder and chaos.
For the record, I’m totally in favor of the workers seizing the means of production, but it doesn’t have to be done violently. If the ultimate outcome is worker’s unions taking over in place of boards of investors, and running former corporations as co-operative enterprises where workers keep most of the value of their labor, and the rest goes to public coffers to fund social programs and civic infrastructure that benefit everybody; if that’s the goal, then it can be done without shedding a drop of blood. Only, the right people need to be in power to make that happen.
I don’t like a lot of the self-proclaimed anarchists for that specific reason. They give the rest of us a really bad look. They miss the whole point of being anti-authoritarian, anti-heirchical, anti-coercisive, and anti-capitalist.
I understand why they are that way, I’m like 99% sure it’s a neurodivergent thing (black-and-white thinking, rejection of authority, failure to recognize social norms, we pretty much all do it to some degree, and some are much more obvious than others).
Like a doctor is an authority on health. Why? Because they earned it. They put their livelihood on the line by licensure and risk to avoid malprat. Governments where only a select few are voted for and the rest of the representation is all because of Republic stances rather than democratic ones are not deserving of authority.
Also, it might be that the anarchists you have met are not anarchists at all. It sounds much more like the communists I know.
Hey, probably don’t blame it 99% on neurodivergence. I’m autistic, and why I do reject authority and struggle with social norms, I don’t see people and views in black and white.
I can think of one in particular, a very arrogant and loud-mouthed, self-proclaimed anarchist, who if he had his way would force everyone to be vegan.
I understand animal rights, and I myself have been vegetarian for a few years. But if he’s truly an anarchist, then how does he expect to enforce veganism on everyone? Just seems cognitively dissonant…
For that matter, how do anarchists plan to stop racists and homophobes from doing racist and homophobic things? It just seems short-sighted, especially from people who profess to be vulnerable minorities. You’d think they would at least want a government that protects them and ensures their equal rights, no?
When you encounter this anarchist, I implore you to question them on how China treats animals. Very curious to see what will happen.
Just some inarticulate posturing and vague implications that I don’t know what I’m talking about, probably.
Like when someone else wore a PLA hat and I asked him how many civilians died in the great leap forward, clearly the reason he didn’t have an answer was because I was the ignorant one. “Oh, you wanna talk to me about the great leap forward?” Acting all insulted
That’s probably how it will go.
I think it’s telling that they can’t admit their ideology has faults or has made mistakes. It’ll never get anywhere.
They lack self-awareness for sure. I would never follow someone who can’t admit when they’ve been wrong about something.
Yeah as soon as the word “force” comes into play, he’s not an anarchist.
A lot of anarchy depends on the concept of equity. If someone in particular is against the equity of his peers, then that individual would likely be kicked out of the collective for violating that tenet.
More than likely, the racist/homophobic individual was never allowed to join the group. If that racist/homophobe was a child raised in the anarchist society and held these views as an adult, then the real question becomes why did that individual form those beliefs if they were intolerable to the group. Action needs to be taken there.
Isn’t that liberalism?
No, though some aspects are shared.
Liberalism has very different views in terms of economics.
that’s true, I don’t agree with liberal economics
To me, at least, you sound a lot more anarchist than you might realize.
I recommend reading up on some - Dorothy Day, Lucy Parsons, Noam Chomsky, Robert Wolff.
Remember it’s a philosophy, not a method of government.
I have pondered anarchism, but I believe it will always descend into feudalism, totalitarianism, or the formation of a government by those who seek power. Anarchism will only be possible through an extreme apocalypse, it’s impossible so long as those who remember how things were still exist.
Ultimately I choose not to label myself as anything, it’s all distractions. The only thing that truly matters to identify is class, everything else is pointless.
I’ll consider reading more of it, but for now I’m reading the Quran, then the hadiths, then the Satanic Verses.
I don’t think he ever said “force” explicitly, but he seemed to be in favor of bullying anyone who didn’t agree with him, so what’s the difference?
Also, what would anarchists do if there’s a whole group of racist homophobes? What if the racist homophobes outnumber the anarchist commune? How is ostracizing them going to address that?
We don’t need to imagine how a child raised in an anarchist society could grow up to be racist; we already live in a world where racists exist and there’s no practical way of bringing about an abrupt halt in that generational pattern. Describing a society that has already been anarchic for generations is merely an abstraction.
If the group of racist homophobic people outnumber us, how did we form our collective? They weren’t anarchist to begin with. They aren’t entitled to our resources.
Because the world is more complex than simply one community forming an anarchist collective and then suddenly all groups of people are involved some harmonious syndicalism where everyone agrees on a basic set of standard social norms and ethical behavior.
You might form an anarchist commune, and maybe a few miles away a remnant of the Hells Angels forms a white supremacist commune based on their own organizational structure. If they decide they want to attack and take your resources, you need a viable means of common defense. Which implies some form of social organization.
If there’s an overarching government, if it’s well-designed and effective, with the correct goals and priorities, then it should at a bare minimum protect against basic things like violence, theft, extortion, racketeering, abduction, and human trafficking.
And if your commune is powerful enough that it decides to be the one to enforce those norms, then it is a de facto government, no matter how decentralized you try to make it.
You can organize a response. The response does not need to remain organized after it’s accomplished what it’s purpose was.
Also no institutions in existence prevent violence, theft, extortion, abduction or human trafficking. They can only respond to it.
what if they just take the resources since they’re stronger and greater in number?
Anarchists aren’t pacifists.
They would do what any collective would do against an invasion at that point. Shoot back. If they are greatly outnumbered, then, unfortunately that society collapses. Hopefully there are survivors who can spread the word amongst other collectives to improve the changes for the next one.
You don’t think there should be some overarching institutions that protect against violence in order to prevent the biggest, strongest, meanest organizations with the most firepower from taking over and becoming the dominant force?
There have been no institutions that protect against violence in an equitable way.
If I were to design a novel political system, there would be privileged places for PhD holders. Political philosophy, political science, history, sociology, etc. I’m not quite certain of the mechanism of selection, whether they’re elected or appointed or something else. Perhaps there would be a direct pipeline from university faculties to the upper-echelons of government. Enough to fill a cabinet with a representative from each department, at least. The departments and agencies would be run by people who spent their lives gaining expertise in their respective fields.
Maybe the public could still elect a head of state, but they would have a more ceremonial role as a figurehead (like the President of Ireland). And the chief of state would be a prime minister. The legislative branch would be parliamentary, with proportional representation.
I say this because, I recognize that the current system in the US is ass. It had some good ideas, for an early iteration of a democratic-republic, but it’s been a few centuries of learning and some things could certainly be done better.
But just because this system is ass, doesn’t mean all systems are inherently ass. There has to be some means of organizing society to keep the gears turning and preventing everything from breaking down into disorder and chaos.
For the record, I’m totally in favor of the workers seizing the means of production, but it doesn’t have to be done violently. If the ultimate outcome is worker’s unions taking over in place of boards of investors, and running former corporations as co-operative enterprises where workers keep most of the value of their labor, and the rest goes to public coffers to fund social programs and civic infrastructure that benefit everybody; if that’s the goal, then it can be done without shedding a drop of blood. Only, the right people need to be in power to make that happen.
Hence why I mention the communist thing.
Anarchy and communism have a LOT of overlap.
Most anarchists are anarcho-communists. I mean anarcho-capitalists exist but those are just oligarchs in favor of technofeudalism
Anarcho-capitalism isn’t remotely anarchy. It’s fuedalism full stop.
That’s what I said
Yes I was agreeing with you.
I keep seeing it pop up everywhere as if there are attempts to legitimize it.
I see. It’s hard to tell sometimes, with some lemmy users literally repeating what I said as if I had said the opposite and they were correcting me