What part of science is guilt by association fallacy?
Rash judgement is at odds with science.
Did you know criminals can associate with noncriminals?
To flip this around, ostracizing others “out of safety” for associating with ex-convicts (who had been processed & released to society) is morally compromised & dishonest, ie, immoral.
Talking to someone who did something wrong doesn’t imply you did something wrong.
Neither does taking their money.
Indulging fallacies is not a hallmark of scientific thought & is more consistent with the repressive, medieval thought scientists fought very hard to overcome.
Sages of major religions famously associated with undesirables: outcasts, untouchables, murderers, dangerous felons, etc.
By the “logic” of that announcement, communities should have banned Buddha & Jesus (also mentioned in the Epstein files).
Those that didn’t were “deplorable” for “not taking firm action to protect” members “in light of” blanket “allegations” that fail to specifically accuse them.
If they were sanctimonious enough, they too could have done “more”.
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usability
we can’t quote the text without pointless bullshit like retyping it or OCR
In case you missed it, these are people who knew Epstein was an unrepentant child molester. Epstein was proven guilty in court, made no statements of remorse, and these scientists continued to validate and support his behavior for years after, up until his death. If he had accepted responsibility for his crimes, I would feel differently about people who decide to associate with him while he spent the rest of his life in prison. But I doubt these scientists would have. The reason they liked Jeffrey was because he got away with everything. They admired his ability to rape on an industrial scale without consequences.
Nobody should ever be guilty by association. However, nobody is entitled to be a respected dino scientist. That is something you earn, and I see no reason not to include their feelings about child rape when discussing whether most attendees would feel comfortable with them at a conference.
According to the Montana Standard, after his name surfaced in the released files, Horner posted, and later deleted, a social media statement calling his decision to pursue Epstein’s support an extremely poor judgment. He said that while he knew Epstein had been convicted of soliciting prostitution, he was unaware of Epstein’s broader sex trafficking operation until years later.
Horner wrote that his visit involved only Epstein, staff, and several women introduced as college students. […]
I can see where the judgement lapse happened, but that’s a pretty big lapse. I’m pretty ok removing these folk until the dust settles from events like this.
Socializing with known child molesters is beyond the pale. If the government isn’t going to deal with them properly one of the better options for the rest of us is to exile them from society. Anyone that’s not on board with this can fuck off right along with them.
I normally agree with you about guilt by association, but these people are currently an IMMINENT threat to every living thing on the planet. I am truly ok with a small amount of collateral damage to excise the cancer before it STRANGLES US TO DEATH. They control everything. Every mechanism of power or change. We cannot allow them the very obvious influence over the extensive investigation that their position afford. We need to purge our power structures of this before anything else can be done about it.
Science without morals and ethics leads to amazing developments, but often misguided or twisted understanding, and unbridled human suffering.
It’s not enough to be a good scientist, one must also be a good person. The people involved with Epstein are UNREPENTANTLY evil. These are not people who are in the “grey” like a leper who was an untouchable or a murderer who killed unintentionally and regrets it their whole life.
A true scientist doesn’t need the law to tell them that someone is highly likely to be a monster when the evidence is mounting. Rather they would chase the evidence and do their best to make a decision based on the most logical outcome.
A good scientist who is also a good person must work to excise this toxicity from the scientific community.
Also, Budda and Jesus? A terrible bad faith argument, I can’t dignify that with anything other than dismissal
“Science without morals and ethics leads to amazing developments, but often misguided or twisted understanding, and unbridled human suffering.”
Exactly this. I see way too many scientists who may not be actively bad people, but they convince themselves that it’s possible to do science in an apolitical manner.
I believe that science is able to get as close to objectivity as is possible to achieve. However, individual scientists can never be objective, and the more they think of themselves in that way, the less objective the resulting science is.
At some point it comes down to incentives, to not shun such terrible people just helps increase their influence. Accepting their money makes it look like you think what they did isn’t bad. Terms like greenwashing exists just highlight this problem, we have to make it clear it’s unacceptable to behave like that and that you can not buy your way out of consequences.
It’s basic risk assessment
Literally everything else you’re talking about is solved by ensuring due process is followed
This isn’t necessarily about justice or guilt. They aren’t being imprisoned or sentenced. An organization is choosing not to permit them where their members & the public gather, for “protection”.
If these individuals were suspected of being in contact with a dangerous contagious disease, you’d hopefully not find it unscientific to minimize risk by telling them not to come to a convention.
But being a child rapist, or ASSOCIATING with child rapists isn’t a contagious disease. No, but due to their association to members of a prolific child trafficing ring, they may be considered a higher risk for a certain subset of convention-goers (which claims to offer fun for people of all ages)
What part of science is guilt by association fallacy? Rash judgement is at odds with science. Did you know criminals can associate with noncriminals?
To flip this around, ostracizing others “out of safety” for associating with ex-convicts (who had been processed & released to society) is morally compromised & dishonest, ie, immoral. Talking to someone who did something wrong doesn’t imply you did something wrong. Neither does taking their money. Indulging fallacies is not a hallmark of scientific thought & is more consistent with the repressive, medieval thought scientists fought very hard to overcome.
Sages of major religions famously associated with undesirables: outcasts, untouchables, murderers, dangerous felons, etc. By the “logic” of that announcement, communities should have banned Buddha & Jesus (also mentioned in the Epstein files). Those that didn’t were “deplorable” for “not taking firm action to protect” members “in light of” blanket “allegations” that fail to specifically accuse them. If they were sanctimonious enough, they too could have done “more”.
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Images of text break much that text alternatives do not. Losses due to image of text lacking alternative such as link:
Contrary to age & humble appearance, text is an advanced technology that provides all these capabilities absent from images.
In case you missed it, these are people who knew Epstein was an unrepentant child molester. Epstein was proven guilty in court, made no statements of remorse, and these scientists continued to validate and support his behavior for years after, up until his death. If he had accepted responsibility for his crimes, I would feel differently about people who decide to associate with him while he spent the rest of his life in prison. But I doubt these scientists would have. The reason they liked Jeffrey was because he got away with everything. They admired his ability to rape on an industrial scale without consequences.
Nobody should ever be guilty by association. However, nobody is entitled to be a respected dino scientist. That is something you earn, and I see no reason not to include their feelings about child rape when discussing whether most attendees would feel comfortable with them at a conference.
I can see where the judgement lapse happened, but that’s a pretty big lapse. I’m pretty ok removing these folk until the dust settles from events like this.
Sounds like Horner was being willfully ignorant, or pretending to be, about the trafficking.
Either way he can fuck off.
Nah. The guilt by association fallacy is more like:
That is not even remotely close to what the DinoCon is doing. If we interpret their actions as an argument, it’s more like:
You might disagree with the first premise (it’s a moral premise, so it depends on your values), but the argument is perfectly logical.
Socializing with known child molesters is beyond the pale. If the government isn’t going to deal with them properly one of the better options for the rest of us is to exile them from society. Anyone that’s not on board with this can fuck off right along with them.
Since justice ain’t working people are taking it upon themselves.
I normally agree with you about guilt by association, but these people are currently an IMMINENT threat to every living thing on the planet. I am truly ok with a small amount of collateral damage to excise the cancer before it STRANGLES US TO DEATH. They control everything. Every mechanism of power or change. We cannot allow them the very obvious influence over the extensive investigation that their position afford. We need to purge our power structures of this before anything else can be done about it.
Science without morals and ethics leads to amazing developments, but often misguided or twisted understanding, and unbridled human suffering.
It’s not enough to be a good scientist, one must also be a good person. The people involved with Epstein are UNREPENTANTLY evil. These are not people who are in the “grey” like a leper who was an untouchable or a murderer who killed unintentionally and regrets it their whole life. A true scientist doesn’t need the law to tell them that someone is highly likely to be a monster when the evidence is mounting. Rather they would chase the evidence and do their best to make a decision based on the most logical outcome.
A good scientist who is also a good person must work to excise this toxicity from the scientific community.
Also, Budda and Jesus? A terrible bad faith argument, I can’t dignify that with anything other than dismissal
Exactly this. I see way too many scientists who may not be actively bad people, but they convince themselves that it’s possible to do science in an apolitical manner.
I believe that science is able to get as close to objectivity as is possible to achieve. However, individual scientists can never be objective, and the more they think of themselves in that way, the less objective the resulting science is.
At some point it comes down to incentives, to not shun such terrible people just helps increase their influence. Accepting their money makes it look like you think what they did isn’t bad. Terms like greenwashing exists just highlight this problem, we have to make it clear it’s unacceptable to behave like that and that you can not buy your way out of consequences.
It’s basic risk assessment
Literally everything else you’re talking about is solved by ensuring due process is followed
This isn’t necessarily about justice or guilt. They aren’t being imprisoned or sentenced. An organization is choosing not to permit them where their members & the public gather, for “protection”.
If these individuals were suspected of being in contact with a dangerous contagious disease, you’d hopefully not find it unscientific to minimize risk by telling them not to come to a convention.
But being a child rapist, or ASSOCIATING with child rapists isn’t a contagious disease. No, but due to their association to members of a prolific child trafficing ring, they may be considered a higher risk for a certain subset of convention-goers (which claims to offer fun for people of all ages)
Well well well, this feels familiar. Pardoning Pedophiles? Ain’t no such thing.
You had me in the first half, not gonna lie.