Researchers at IMDEA Networks Institute, together with European partners, have found that tire pressure sensors in modern cars can unintentionally expose drivers to tracking. Over a ten-week study, they collected signals from more than 20,000 vehicles, revealing a hidden privacy risk and highlighting the need for stronger security measures in future vehicle sensor systems. Most...
A local city proudly mentioned on the news that they had a system that could track TPMS sensors. Pretty much all cars after 2008 uses TPMS sensors that each broadcast a unique identifier to the car. They aren’t hard to remove, and you can buy valve stems that fit your car (0.452 hole) at any auto parts store.
By “aren’t hard to remove” you actually mean requires dismounting the tire from the rim, remounting it, and then balacing it. This is far beyond the capabilities not to mention equipment of the typical layperson. Plus, your state is likely to conveniently fail your car on its next inspection for a nonfunctioning TPMS system, same as your check engine light.
If you’re going to go the distance anyway, get your tire shop to mount aftermarket Autel sensors in your rims. Using the readily available diagnostic tool, you can occasionally reprogram those (wirelessly!) with a set of random IDs and then also program your car to use them. You’ll be a lot tougher to track if your signature is different every week.
I’m not about to do this just yet, but I do have the tool for more mundane purposes and I only paid around $200 for it several years ago.
My own state requires it despite that list implying they don’t. Thus I really don’t think that chart is completely accurate. If you have ANY warning lights on your dash at inspection you will be failed here.
I did say most, not all. Some of the info on that page may be outdated, but obviously it would just be limited to those that require regular comprehensive inspections in the first place.
I was able to easily look up the inspection guidelines from my states DMV page and confirm for myself that TPMS light is not a fail here so YMMV, but my point was essentially that it’s more likely than not that bad sensors won’t fail someone, not that nobody will get failed.
I worked at a car repair shop when I was younger. I agree that it’s not most (as in > 50%) but the number of people who knowingly drive very unsafe vehicles is bigger than you’d think.
Eh. I’ve seen enough 300+ HP cars with 10+ year old bald tires and paper thin brake discs to believe otherwise. I personally know two people whose cars have broken wipers that simply don’t work. They don’t care. I know one guy whose car’s passenger door can only be opened by sticking the designated door opening pliers, which are stored under the seat, into the door panel through the hole of that door lock indicator peg thing and then fishing for some lever or whatever. You’re simply not gonna be opening that door in an emergency. One dude at my office has an old manual BMW with a shifter knob that just loosely sits on its lever, and can easily come off if you are not careful. Gotta blindly maneuver the knob back onto its spot underneath the leather cover when that happens. He drives it like that daily. No shortage of hideously dirty diesel engines. No shortage of badly misaligned headlights, nonfunctional brake lights, overly loud engines etc.
In short I not only think state inspections are a good idea, I even think they should be even stricter.
You would be extremely surprised. Car maintenance is expensive, and lack of inspection very often leads to people driving vehicles that should have been off the road years ago simply because a lot of states that axe it, axe inspections because they’re expensive for the driver (a lot of these states are in the former Steel Belt). In better-off areas or places where people have more time/money/equipment/space to wrench on cars, then yes, but here in my city, I definitely have seen cars where the entire frame is basically being held together by Bondo and prayer, cars where they’re running on 4 spares, cars where enormous sections of the body paneling are just gone. I’ve nearly been hit by people who clearly relied on yearly inspections to tell them “hey your brakes are failing” because they drive on autopilot and just adjust how they drive to accommodate failing/failed brakes.
In fact, I suspect maintenance costs are HIGHER in areas without inspection, because shops could rely on that regular-ish influx of cash even if it was only like $50-$100 a vehicle, AND you have the customer in the shop, so it’s easier to go “hey you really need brakes, it’ll cost you an extra $200 and take an extra hour or two”.
State inspections are a racket. This is coming from a state inspector. Waste of time and money! I only got certified so I can inspect my own and wife’s vehicles. Well that and it’s invaluable at work but shit if your determined to drive an unroadworthy POS the lack of a sticker on ur windshield and the possibility u MIGHT get a 50$ fine and no points is not enough to deter the idiots from driving rolling scrap heaps anyways. Seen em before and will continue to see em weather inspections are mandated or not.
Both over and under inflated tyres present a significant reduction in handling and breaking abilities of cars. Having the correct air pressure in your tyres is fairly important when push comes to shove.
It certainly doesn’t require removing the tire from the rim. I removed each wheel, broke the bead on the side that has the valve stem, pried the tire back away from the rim, remove the sensor (mine had a convenient little part you can push to release them) then air the tire back up and put the wheel back on the car. Didn’t even have to re-balance them.
If we want to take steps to protect ourselves from such tracking, we cannot afford to simply say “It’s ToO hArD!!!1!” with a multi-paragraph reply that took more time to type out than it took for me to remove one sensor. Can’t do it? Learn how. Defeatist replies belong on Reddit with all the other propaganda.
Hope y threw ur phone away and got rid of ur head unit while u were at it. Tpms tracking is just about the last fucking thing I’d ever worry about especially with the lack of range those transponders have. Nobody is tracking you via tpms 😂
You’re going to have a tire pressure light on forever.
There’s a reason these are mandated. They’re critical safety (and efficiency) systems.
As always, these are systems of convenience, and the alternative is to check your tire pressures every day before leaving home.
Older cars use a wheel speed sensor-based TPMS. It’s not as effective or reliable but it also doesn’t emit any signals that can be read by other devices.
I managed to drive cars for 30 years without a TPMS sensor and the only time I ever had a to check the pressure on a tire, was when I knew i had a leak and didn’t have time to fix it. I can also tell by the way my car drives if a tire is soft. I also had an air pump in my car powered by a cigarette lighter adapter that I could fill my tires.
My current car, from 2019 doesn’t have one. I’ve managed to own it 7 years (this week) without needing to check the pressure 2500 times.
The assertion you need to check your pressure everyday without a TPMS system is ridiculous.
If you didn’t check your tire pressure in the last 20 minutes how do you know you didn’t just drive over a nail and get a slow leak? TPMS checks every few seconds so you know when there is a small problem. Anyone will notice a fully flat tire, but a lot of people used to drive on low tire pressure for months without knowing. Once someone knew their tire had a problem they would check daily (until they got it fixed), but many people never knew in the first place, and even though who did know often took a week before they found out - they of course have no way to know since nobody checked their tire pressure daily much less every 20 minutes.
Low tire pressure is not a safety issue, more of a efficiency issue, until it is so low that you’d need to be paying ZERO attention to the car’s handling to not notice. Lower pressure actually increases performance (to a point, and depending on the tire) because it can allow more rubber to contact the road. It is pretty typical to air down to around 20 psi for performance driving even if it’s closer to 35 for daily driving.
It’s very easy to notice if one tire loses pressure because you’ll have a very strong pull to one side, almost like a bad alignment. I got my tires rotated at a shop and they deflated the tires for some reason and forgot to refill one of them. On my way home I was freaking out that they fucked my alignment because it was handling so weird on the suburban roads home (not even twisty performance driving). My TPMS didn’t even go off until I was basically home already. When I checked the tire it was maybe 15 or 20. Certainly not dangerous but also certainly noticeable.
Have you met people? Do you think that battered old Chevy is driven by someone who cares about the TPMS light? They can ignore it as effectively as the check engine light.
I’ve been driving for 30 years. Do you want to guess how many times that’s happened to me?
Meanwhile, I’ve apparently been living in a totalitarian surveillance state for at least a few years now, and you know how many times that’s happened to me? I’ll give you a hint, it’s more than the number of times I’ve run over a nail causing me to drive around on low tire pressure without knowing it.
What matters is the whole community. Statistically it happens to someone in your community. Society wasted a lot of fuel (read global warming) just on low tire pressure.
That may have been the intention but I doubt it ever worked as effectively as they claimed it would. Besides, it will probably cost at least 1 AI data-center of carbon emissions to continuously surveil all these people with TPMS sensors, so the argument could be made that you’re actually reducing carbon pollution at this point by removing yours.
The fact that you’ve gotten away with it is not proof that it’s unnecessary. The fact that it was legally mandated is good evidence that it is. These systems save lives, no question about it.
The fact that it was legally mandated is good evidence that it is.
but their point was laws are not always made with good intentions and safety in mind. that’s not to say TPMS is required for secret surveillance, but that there being a law for it does not immediately mean there’s good purpose for that law.
yes it has, when a law not only just does not have good purpose, but even malicious, but even when the added safety is not outweighed by the bad things it does
Do you believe law and ethics are separable? Does your “these systems save lives” not speak to the very reasoning employed to codify an ethical position into the law of the land?
1.) Lol, no I won’t. That light can be removed. Or if it’s a Ford, you can access the vehicle with Forscan and turn off that functionality.
2.) How did we ever survive before 2008? Were there disabled cars with shredded tires every 20 feet? Was it an apocalypse of failed tires? People who don’t bother to check tire pressure won’t bother for yet another warning light on their dash.
You can get close enough just clipping some weights of the same weight as the sensor to the valve stem. A static balance isn’t hard to do - not nearly as good as the proper dynamic balance the tire shop will do, but often good enough.
A local city proudly mentioned on the news that they had a system that could track TPMS sensors. Pretty much all cars after 2008 uses TPMS sensors that each broadcast a unique identifier to the car. They aren’t hard to remove, and you can buy valve stems that fit your car (0.452 hole) at any auto parts store.
By “aren’t hard to remove” you actually mean requires dismounting the tire from the rim, remounting it, and then balacing it. This is far beyond the capabilities not to mention equipment of the typical layperson. Plus, your state is likely to conveniently fail your car on its next inspection for a nonfunctioning TPMS system, same as your check engine light.
If you’re going to go the distance anyway, get your tire shop to mount aftermarket Autel sensors in your rims. Using the readily available diagnostic tool, you can occasionally reprogram those (wirelessly!) with a set of random IDs and then also program your car to use them. You’ll be a lot tougher to track if your signature is different every week.
I’m not about to do this just yet, but I do have the tool for more mundane purposes and I only paid around $200 for it several years ago.
It seems most states with mandatory vehicle inspections don’t fail for TPMS problems.
https://www.tirerack.com/upgrade-garage/what-are-state-tpms-regulations
That only lists 18 states…
My own state requires it despite that list implying they don’t. Thus I really don’t think that chart is completely accurate. If you have ANY warning lights on your dash at inspection you will be failed here.
I did say most, not all. Some of the info on that page may be outdated, but obviously it would just be limited to those that require regular comprehensive inspections in the first place.
I was able to easily look up the inspection guidelines from my states DMV page and confirm for myself that TPMS light is not a fail here so YMMV, but my point was essentially that it’s more likely than not that bad sensors won’t fail someone, not that nobody will get failed.
18 out of 50 is not ‘most’.
Your who is going to do what now?
(Posted from a state that doesn’t check anything except emissions, and even then only for some cars in some urban areas.)
Fuck that sounds like a place full of dangerously badly maintained vehicles…
Surprisingly, most people aren’t actually suicidally negligent in the absence of government regulation.
I worked at a car repair shop when I was younger. I agree that it’s not most (as in > 50%) but the number of people who knowingly drive very unsafe vehicles is bigger than you’d think.
Eh. I’ve seen enough 300+ HP cars with 10+ year old bald tires and paper thin brake discs to believe otherwise. I personally know two people whose cars have broken wipers that simply don’t work. They don’t care. I know one guy whose car’s passenger door can only be opened by sticking the designated door opening pliers, which are stored under the seat, into the door panel through the hole of that door lock indicator peg thing and then fishing for some lever or whatever. You’re simply not gonna be opening that door in an emergency. One dude at my office has an old manual BMW with a shifter knob that just loosely sits on its lever, and can easily come off if you are not careful. Gotta blindly maneuver the knob back onto its spot underneath the leather cover when that happens. He drives it like that daily. No shortage of hideously dirty diesel engines. No shortage of badly misaligned headlights, nonfunctional brake lights, overly loud engines etc.
In short I not only think state inspections are a good idea, I even think they should be even stricter.
You would be extremely surprised. Car maintenance is expensive, and lack of inspection very often leads to people driving vehicles that should have been off the road years ago simply because a lot of states that axe it, axe inspections because they’re expensive for the driver (a lot of these states are in the former Steel Belt). In better-off areas or places where people have more time/money/equipment/space to wrench on cars, then yes, but here in my city, I definitely have seen cars where the entire frame is basically being held together by Bondo and prayer, cars where they’re running on 4 spares, cars where enormous sections of the body paneling are just gone. I’ve nearly been hit by people who clearly relied on yearly inspections to tell them “hey your brakes are failing” because they drive on autopilot and just adjust how they drive to accommodate failing/failed brakes.
In fact, I suspect maintenance costs are HIGHER in areas without inspection, because shops could rely on that regular-ish influx of cash even if it was only like $50-$100 a vehicle, AND you have the customer in the shop, so it’s easier to go “hey you really need brakes, it’ll cost you an extra $200 and take an extra hour or two”.
+1000, but you still see it in places with plenty of money and space to work on cars.
That is actually surprising, given people.
Survivorship bias
State inspections are a racket. This is coming from a state inspector. Waste of time and money! I only got certified so I can inspect my own and wife’s vehicles. Well that and it’s invaluable at work but shit if your determined to drive an unroadworthy POS the lack of a sticker on ur windshield and the possibility u MIGHT get a 50$ fine and no points is not enough to deter the idiots from driving rolling scrap heaps anyways. Seen em before and will continue to see em weather inspections are mandated or not.
State inspection of your vehicle? Wtf? I’ve heard of California with catalytic converters because the smog, that’s it. I
I don’t understand the confusion.
What shitholy states force you to get them inspected, obviously.
How is making sure everyone’s >2 ton 100mph missile is safe to use shitholy?
If they are checking that your spyware is installed still, it gives lie to their motivation.
This spyware is a byproduct of how the wireless tpms sensors work. If someone installed a wired version it would still pass.
Both over and under inflated tyres present a significant reduction in handling and breaking abilities of cars. Having the correct air pressure in your tyres is fairly important when push comes to shove.
It certainly doesn’t require removing the tire from the rim. I removed each wheel, broke the bead on the side that has the valve stem, pried the tire back away from the rim, remove the sensor (mine had a convenient little part you can push to release them) then air the tire back up and put the wheel back on the car. Didn’t even have to re-balance them.
If we want to take steps to protect ourselves from such tracking, we cannot afford to simply say “It’s ToO hArD!!!1!” with a multi-paragraph reply that took more time to type out than it took for me to remove one sensor. Can’t do it? Learn how. Defeatist replies belong on Reddit with all the other propaganda.
Hope y threw ur phone away and got rid of ur head unit while u were at it. Tpms tracking is just about the last fucking thing I’d ever worry about especially with the lack of range those transponders have. Nobody is tracking you via tpms 😂
You know that you can leave your phone at home, right?
EDIT: Also, another Defeatist reply.
Yeah, a couple problems with that:
As always, these are systems of convenience, and the alternative is to check your tire pressures every day before leaving home.
Older cars use a wheel speed sensor-based TPMS. It’s not as effective or reliable but it also doesn’t emit any signals that can be read by other devices.
I managed to drive cars for 30 years without a TPMS sensor and the only time I ever had a to check the pressure on a tire, was when I knew i had a leak and didn’t have time to fix it. I can also tell by the way my car drives if a tire is soft. I also had an air pump in my car powered by a cigarette lighter adapter that I could fill my tires.
My current car, from 2019 doesn’t have one. I’ve managed to own it 7 years (this week) without needing to check the pressure 2500 times.
The assertion you need to check your pressure everyday without a TPMS system is ridiculous.
If you didn’t check your tire pressure in the last 20 minutes how do you know you didn’t just drive over a nail and get a slow leak? TPMS checks every few seconds so you know when there is a small problem. Anyone will notice a fully flat tire, but a lot of people used to drive on low tire pressure for months without knowing. Once someone knew their tire had a problem they would check daily (until they got it fixed), but many people never knew in the first place, and even though who did know often took a week before they found out - they of course have no way to know since nobody checked their tire pressure daily much less every 20 minutes.
Low tire pressure is not a safety issue, more of a efficiency issue, until it is so low that you’d need to be paying ZERO attention to the car’s handling to not notice. Lower pressure actually increases performance (to a point, and depending on the tire) because it can allow more rubber to contact the road. It is pretty typical to air down to around 20 psi for performance driving even if it’s closer to 35 for daily driving.
It’s very easy to notice if one tire loses pressure because you’ll have a very strong pull to one side, almost like a bad alignment. I got my tires rotated at a shop and they deflated the tires for some reason and forgot to refill one of them. On my way home I was freaking out that they fucked my alignment because it was handling so weird on the suburban roads home (not even twisty performance driving). My TPMS didn’t even go off until I was basically home already. When I checked the tire it was maybe 15 or 20. Certainly not dangerous but also certainly noticeable.
Have you met people? Do you think that battered old Chevy is driven by someone who cares about the TPMS light? They can ignore it as effectively as the check engine light.
I’ve been driving for 30 years. Do you want to guess how many times that’s happened to me?
Meanwhile, I’ve apparently been living in a totalitarian surveillance state for at least a few years now, and you know how many times that’s happened to me? I’ll give you a hint, it’s more than the number of times I’ve run over a nail causing me to drive around on low tire pressure without knowing it.
What matters is the whole community. Statistically it happens to someone in your community. Society wasted a lot of fuel (read global warming) just on low tire pressure.
Surveillance is a problem. So is global warming.
That may have been the intention but I doubt it ever worked as effectively as they claimed it would. Besides, it will probably cost at least 1 AI data-center of carbon emissions to continuously surveil all these people with TPMS sensors, so the argument could be made that you’re actually reducing carbon pollution at this point by removing yours.
I am suspicious of that being the motivation behind this.
The fact that you’ve gotten away with it is not proof that it’s unnecessary. The fact that it was legally mandated is good evidence that it is. These systems save lives, no question about it.
Legal != effective or ethical, that is an unbelievably stupid argument for TPMS.
LOL who said anything about ethics? This is an unbelievably stupid strawman.
indeed, you said this:
but their point was laws are not always made with good intentions and safety in mind. that’s not to say TPMS is required for secret surveillance, but that there being a law for it does not immediately mean there’s good purpose for that law.
Indeed, that had nothing to do with ethics.
yes it has, when a law not only just does not have good purpose, but even malicious, but even when the added safety is not outweighed by the bad things it does
Do you believe law and ethics are separable? Does your “these systems save lives” not speak to the very reasoning employed to codify an ethical position into the law of the land?
lots of things are legally mandated without any good evidence.
Lots of things legally mandated in the past are now unconscionable or illegal now.
I live in Canada and my snow tires haven’t had functioning TPMS in years. I do have a tire pressure light on forever, and they’re not mandated.
Cool. Did you come here just to tell us that you’re proud to drive unsafely or what?
Do you drive without a LIDAR? Why, do you like to live dangerously?
If my car had LIDAR I would certainly take reasonable measures to ensure it continued working, yes.
My snow tires didn’t come with TPMS sensors.
Because they’re not mandated.
Just like LIDAR wasn’t mandated on your car when you bought it.
TPMS sensors are in the wheels, not the tires. The only way they would no longer be there is if you had them removed.
1.) Lol, no I won’t. That light can be removed. Or if it’s a Ford, you can access the vehicle with Forscan and turn off that functionality.
2.) How did we ever survive before 2008? Were there disabled cars with shredded tires every 20 feet? Was it an apocalypse of failed tires? People who don’t bother to check tire pressure won’t bother for yet another warning light on their dash.
LOL often times it cannot, because it’s not a “light” at all on modern vehicles.
A lot of people didn’t. That’s why it was mandated.
Maybe YOU can’t remove the light.
This has nothing to with me.
They aren’t hard to remove, and you can buy valve stems that fit your hole at any auto parts store.
Good to know.
They are hard to remove, and require a variety of expensive specialty tools to do properly.
You can get close enough just clipping some weights of the same weight as the sensor to the valve stem. A static balance isn’t hard to do - not nearly as good as the proper dynamic balance the tire shop will do, but often good enough.
You still have to remove and reinstall the tire…
One side of the tire. I did not have to remove the tires from the rims, and I didn’t have to balance them.
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