(I’m just trying to learn. No hidden mockery in this and this is no gotcha bs aimed at t women. I’m NOT transphobic. Just saw this in a debate and wanted to know other people’s thoughts)
I just want to know:
- Is this factually correct?
- If it is, does it matter? Why or why not?
- How would you logically respond to this?
- How does this statement not contradict with Trans Women are Women
1: Yes.
2: Not really. It’s more about self image and social presentation.
3: Best response I have is, “And?” Covers a lot of bases.
4: Same way you get any title like Doctor, or Fam, you need to be accepted into the community by peers, and not necessarily universally.
who cares
if someone asks to be called she/her/susan then just do it. it doesn’t need to be so complicated
conservatives ranting about biology are attacking a straw man. nobody actually gives a shit
Well surely you can agree that letting men into women’s change rooms or sports was going to be an easy debate, or that children should be medically transitioned. The outrage is predictable, as is the censorship and quelling of incorrect opinions.
how do you think trans people feel about it?
(My opinion)
- Yes it is factually correct, but it’s not an argument
- maybe matters (what bathroom do they use I have no idea)
- I would say they are correct but it doesn’t prove anything about trans people being invalid (trans people are valid af, having the courage to change your gender is something I couldn’t imagine)
- There is a difference between gender and sex. Sex is your biology, gender is what you identify as. Your sex can be male while your gender being female.
I want to be clear I’m not queer this is just what I have learnt in school (crazy our school actually teaches us about this), I could be wrong.
Why respond to it. If someone’s already recognised someone as a trans woman what’s the problem
Aight, you asked multiple questions, so you’re going to get some strange answers, possibly including this one.
To your title question, the only time I’ve heard anyone say that, they were being a douche. My response online is mostly of the “down vote, report if appropriate, and move on” variety.
In meat space, my response is usually either an eye roll and walking off, or a “fucking moron” and walking off.
I have big dude privilege in meat space, and roll well armed, so have no need to pretend to be nice to douche nozzles spewing bullshit.
The other questions are harder.
1: for a given value of factual, sure, I guess. But it’s using imprecise language that’s been weaponized, so I would be dubious of someone stating it until there was more context. “Biological” isn’t as definitive and limited in usages as to be without question in that context.
2: don’t matter. If a guy says he’s a guy, he’s a guy. If a gal says she’s a gal, she’s a gal. End of fucking story, and I will gladly tell anyone fucking with my trans homies that they’re a fucking moron and be willing to either walk off, or fuck them up if they insist. IDGAF about sometimes XY or XX status, or any of the other possible combinations (remember when I said “Biological” isn’t that useful or definitive? Yeah, biology ain’t a binary). I care about the person’s expressed self. It’s about basic human decency and respect.
3: I wouldn’t respond logically. It doesn’t merit any effort on my part. I’m not in the business of convincing anyone that everyone has human rights, should have equal acces to all civil rights, or that someone else’s gender is none of their fucking business. It isn’t about logic. Anyone at this point trying to frame gender as some kind of science debate is a douche and can go fuck themselves. The debate at this point has nothing to do with “biology”. It’s about human rights. And yes, I will fight on that hill.
4: it would only contradict if the person trying to bring “biology” into a conversation is being a douche instead of just missing the point. I don’t automatically assume a person trying to frame the subject in those terms is acting with malice. So they may not be contradicting the fact that trans women are women. They may just be exploring the language of transness in an attempt to better understand the matter. And that’s okay. It isn’t a built in part of language, so everyone has to absorb the concepts over time.
Alas, assholes and morons use that language to denigrate trans people. So I also can’t assume someone isn’t doing so. I have to wait for context, or be proactive in stating that I ain’t putting up with bigotry, so if that’s where they’re going, it won’t end well.
Me? The debate is over. What’s still in play is people finding their path to internalizing the subject. We don’t get to debate what is a fundamental human experience. Trans people exist. It isn’t imaginary on their part, it isn’t bad parenting, it isn’t trauma. They’re trans, and that’s it.
Why do I have to have an opinion? Why can’t we just let them be.
My answer: if we’re sat the point that you don’t even understand the definitions of sex, gender and sexuality I don’t think we have the time to discuss this. Ultimately, regardless of definitions, we should treat humans as humans and be kind to one another.
“Male and female are ultimately words that humans made up. Transitioning affects most of the ways that we define which is which. If you define male and female solely based on the things that are unchangeable using current technology, that’s your fault.”
In general, please don’t ask loaded, third-rail questions on !asklemmy@lemmy.ml, because
- it’s a PITA for mods, and
- that’s not what the community is for:. It’s supposed to be a clone of r/askreddit.
It’s extremely
hairymessy to define biological sex. Whoever wants to argue has a middle school level understanding of biology, refuse to learn and completely ignores the science.See
It’s extremely hairy to define biological sex.
Doubly so after puberty.
It’s extremely hairy to define biological sex.
Ermm… What is that sentence dude?
In this context, “hairy” can mean “tricky” or “difficult”.
Fixed… -w-
“You’re biologically a loser lmao”
Would ask to provide separate definitions for woman, man, male and female. We can’t jump to conclusions about someone’s statement before seeing the whole picture of what is happening in his mind.
Follow up question:
“And why does it have any importance for you the presence or not of some chromosomes, so you need to be so explicit about it?”
Depends on who’s saying it. For most people it’s just not worth saying anything. Anything you say goes in one ear and out the other
If they seem like they’re asking in good faith or I just want to practice my rhetoric, I’ll ask what they mean by “biologically male.” Chromosomally, maybe. Hormonally? Maybe not. Breast cancer doesn’t care about your chromosomes.
Yeah, biology is a fucking mess is the thing. I happen to be aware of a medical condition a woman can have where they literally have male chromosomes but completely female sexual characteristics.
Swyer syndrome is why I said “chromosomally, maybe.” XY chromosomes, and some level of female development, sometimes to the point of being able to have children
I believe that this is some specific case of hermaphrodity you have described. I know cases when people can have undeveloped or even partially developed organs of other sex and don’t even know about them until a doctor finds it during a random body scan or surgery.
Biological sex (male, female, intersex) refers to the physical aspects of your body, such as primary sex characteristics (reproductive organs), secondary sex characteristics (body hair, breasts, fat distribution, etc), hormone levels (estrogen, testosterone), and chromosomes.
Gender (man, woman, nonbinary, other terms) is more about an internal sense of self, how you see yourself and how you want your body to be, as well as what social category you belong in.
A trans woman is a person who was biologically male at birth, but sees herself as a woman/wants her body to align with her gender (woman). Not all trans women medically transition, and that’s ok, but for those who do, it can change various aspects of their biological sex, such as hormone levels and secondary sex characteristics, so it may not be entirely true to say that trans women (post transition) are biologically male either.
This!
I was really scared to ask this question lol. But I needed to know. Thank you so much. That about sums it up.
