A LOT of this comes from elitist “old heads”. Until the 2000’s or 2010’s, anime in America came from importing it into specialty shops. These formed a community of sorts, a unique subculture of anime enthusiasts. English dubs were rare, but if they existed they were often done very cheaply. Bad translation, bad direction, bad acting, bad editing, bad mixing even. Because it was not a large or lucrative enough market to justify putting money into.
There was also online piracy, which included the occasional fan dub. Which like… The passion of fans can be great for some things, but most anime fans lacked the skills fkd professional quality audio production.
And so for a loooong time English dubs got the reputation for being garbage. That changed a while ago, but some people just have a hard time adjusting their expectations.
Gatekeeping. It is simply harder to watch things in a language you do not known with subtitles. That keeps out the visually impaired. It requires a lot more cognitive effort to watch, and takes your eyes off the actual animation that you are meant to enjoy. A lot of these old heads learned enough Japanese to be able to understand basic conversation.
In the pirate scene you also have fan subs, which is something that is much more accessible to anime fans than audio production. You need a lot of equipment and talent and expertise in different areas to create a dub. You just needed a computer and the ability to translate to make a sub. I don’t mean to diminish the effort and skill it takes to translate, but dubbing requires all of those same skills PLUS a whole lot more, so it is harder.
This is not unique to anime. People in the US who watch foreign films in different languages have a similar subculture.
Personally, I like to get high and watch anime, but I find it’s harder to read when I’m high. I don’t mind watching sub’s stuff occasionally, but I prefer dubs.
Ignorance. It was not ONLY the English voice acting that was bad. A lot of cheaply made anime in the 80’s, 90’s, and 00’s had terrible Japanese voice acting too. However, if you don’t know much Japanese and are just reading the subtitles, you are not really in as good of a position to evaluate it. A lot of old anime fans love their anime, and felt outcast by American mainstream culture. They related more to Japanese culture and want to think its better. So they just assume the voice acting was better even when they aren’t able to evaluate it themselves.
A lot of cheaply made anime in the 80’s, 90’s, and 00’s had terrible Japanese voice acting too. However, if you don’t know much Japanese and are just reading the subtitles, you are not really in as good of a position to evaluate it.
I used to think this until I watched one of those “[sentence] in 50 languages” videos, and then, surprised by what I heard, I listened to longer things dubbed in languages other than English. It turns out not being able to understand the language doesn’t brainwash you into thinking the performance is compelling.
And, TBH, I’ve come to consider this attitude, that voice actors can just be swapped out like mechanical components, to be disrespectful to them and the art of voice acting. What we have with American dubs is like taking Star Wars and swapping out James Earl Jones for Dwayne Johnson doing the same voice he does in Moana, with zero direction from any of the creatives that originally made the Darth Vader character. Note that I chose Star Wars as an example and not something like Citizen Kane or Schindler’s List. I’m not trying to argue that all Japanese media is some kind of high art that can never be equaled. But something doesn’t need to be high art to be butchered.
I formed that opinion based onnfeedbacj I received from native Japanese speakers. And it makes a lot of sense. I’ve also watched compilations just admiring bad voice acting in muktiple languages- sometimes there aren’t even words, just noises and exclamations and sounds that are terrible. Sometimes its easy to tell a flat delivery even if you don’t speak the language.
And I LIKE bad voice acting sometimes. Depending on the situation it can be more entertaining than good acting.
There is good and bad voice acting in animation written for English-speaking people. Further beyond just the acting itself, there is the writing and and direction and editing and mixing to consider. I’ve seen stuff with voice actors that I know are good that sounds terrible because of these other factors.
And yes, the acting will change depending on the individual performance, but I don’t think that just because someone was the first to do it means they will be the best. For most of human history, plays were performed by hundreds, maybe thousands of different actors across centuries. How many different men have played Romeo or Hamlet? Even with bad actors, you can still usually appreciate the stories.
I would have absolutely no problem with replacing James Earl Jones with another actor in a remake. Heck, there are probably a lot of actors in their prime in Hollywood right now that have spent most of their lives working on their Darth Vader. I don’t think that’s disrespectful at all. Characters get re-cast quite often as their actors age out or die or jisy have scheduling conflicts. And you see this in anime too: sometimes the Japanese voice actor changes over time, sometimes the English ones do, its not really a big deal.
Even with bad actors, you can still usually appreciate the stories.
True, but not what the conversation was about.
For most of human history, plays were performed by hundreds, maybe thousands of different actors across centuries. How many different men have played Romeo or Hamlet?
I would have absolutely no problem with replacing James Earl Jones with another actor in a remake.
Characters get re-cast quite often as their actors age out or die
All three of these situations are different than dubs. In the first two cases you have people using an existing work to realize a unique artistic vision, combining what was already there with their own perspective and self expression. A remake (and another instance of a play performance) doesn’t replace the original, as its an entirely separate work. In the last case you have the original creators of something working around a fact of life, and still doing their best to realize their own vision.
In the case of a dub you have a localization company contracted by a publishing company to produce a product. Their objective isn’t to create a new work of art, which is why its very rare for someone to say “you should watch the original first then the dub for the best experience”, like they do for, say, Suspiria (1977) and Suspiria (2018).
The desired outcome of a dub is to provide as close to the same experience as possible to the original, but in a different language. So essentially the producers of the dub are trying to do the same job as the original director. The thing is that almost everything about the quality of a movie performance is attributed to the dynamic between director and actor. People literally write books about how a specific performance came to be, specific things that a director said to an actor, specific events that happened to take place on set. If I said “give me access to the same actors and cameras and hand me a script and I could do as good of a job as Steven Spielberg” people would think I was insane.
So why is it SUCH a controversial statement to say that maybe Bobson Dugnut at a random localization company may have done a worse job than someone like Yoko Taro or Hayao Miyazaki?
And favouring walking and riding a bicycle over driving a car is gatekeeping of transport because it keeps out the disabled. What a bizarre argument/accusation.
It requires a lot more cognitive effort to watch, and takes your eyes off the actual animation that you are meant to enjoy.
It doesn’t, as long as your reading skills are above that of a 12-year-old.
People in the US who watch foreign films in different languages have a similar subculture.
Bruh, what? Non-English films aren’t dubbed enough in the first place for this to be a metric for a “subculture”.
And favouring walking and riding a bicycle over driving a car
Car-centric infrastructure is far more detrimental to people with mobility impairments than any other mode of transportation. I would recommend you research what gold urbanism is if you’re saying stuff like this.
It doesn’t, as long as your reading skills are above that of a 12-year-old.
Reading literally engages different parts of your brain that are otherwise dormant. And as I mentioned, sometimes I want to watch stuff while high. Sometimes I want to give my eyes a break from using my glasses or reading things in fine detail.
I didn’t mention this before, but it is also very common for myself and a lot of other people to be doing other things and having TV on in the background. While i’m working or cooking or doing dishes or engaging in hobbies like soldering or woodworking. Especially with incredibly long anime like One Piece… That is a whole lot of hours to dedicate to doing absolutely nothing else. Netflix has talked about how they make “second screen” content now. Personally I find the idea of scrolling some social media in your phone while watching something to be a terrible idea, but its also often enjoyable to just listen to an anime.
Bruh, what? Non-English films aren’t dubbed enough in the first place for this to be a metric for a “subculture”.
For me that’s a plus. I can listen to Matt Mercer’s duldct tones all day.
I look up my favorite voice actors and see what else they have been in to decide what to watch next. I think a LOT of people do this, with live action actors moreso.
There was also online piracy, which included the occasional fan dub. Which like… The passion of fans can be great for some things, but most anime fans lacked the skills fkd professional quality audio production.
And so for a loooong time English dubs got the reputation for being garbage. That changed a while ago, but some people just have a hard time adjusting their expectations.
In the pirate scene you also have fan subs, which is something that is much more accessible to anime fans than audio production. You need a lot of equipment and talent and expertise in different areas to create a dub. You just needed a computer and the ability to translate to make a sub. I don’t mean to diminish the effort and skill it takes to translate, but dubbing requires all of those same skills PLUS a whole lot more, so it is harder.
This is not unique to anime. People in the US who watch foreign films in different languages have a similar subculture.
Personally, I like to get high and watch anime, but I find it’s harder to read when I’m high. I don’t mind watching sub’s stuff occasionally, but I prefer dubs.
I used to think this until I watched one of those “[sentence] in 50 languages” videos, and then, surprised by what I heard, I listened to longer things dubbed in languages other than English. It turns out not being able to understand the language doesn’t brainwash you into thinking the performance is compelling.
And, TBH, I’ve come to consider this attitude, that voice actors can just be swapped out like mechanical components, to be disrespectful to them and the art of voice acting. What we have with American dubs is like taking Star Wars and swapping out James Earl Jones for Dwayne Johnson doing the same voice he does in Moana, with zero direction from any of the creatives that originally made the Darth Vader character. Note that I chose Star Wars as an example and not something like Citizen Kane or Schindler’s List. I’m not trying to argue that all Japanese media is some kind of high art that can never be equaled. But something doesn’t need to be high art to be butchered.
I formed that opinion based onnfeedbacj I received from native Japanese speakers. And it makes a lot of sense. I’ve also watched compilations just admiring bad voice acting in muktiple languages- sometimes there aren’t even words, just noises and exclamations and sounds that are terrible. Sometimes its easy to tell a flat delivery even if you don’t speak the language.
And I LIKE bad voice acting sometimes. Depending on the situation it can be more entertaining than good acting.
There is good and bad voice acting in animation written for English-speaking people. Further beyond just the acting itself, there is the writing and and direction and editing and mixing to consider. I’ve seen stuff with voice actors that I know are good that sounds terrible because of these other factors.
And yes, the acting will change depending on the individual performance, but I don’t think that just because someone was the first to do it means they will be the best. For most of human history, plays were performed by hundreds, maybe thousands of different actors across centuries. How many different men have played Romeo or Hamlet? Even with bad actors, you can still usually appreciate the stories.
I would have absolutely no problem with replacing James Earl Jones with another actor in a remake. Heck, there are probably a lot of actors in their prime in Hollywood right now that have spent most of their lives working on their Darth Vader. I don’t think that’s disrespectful at all. Characters get re-cast quite often as their actors age out or die or jisy have scheduling conflicts. And you see this in anime too: sometimes the Japanese voice actor changes over time, sometimes the English ones do, its not really a big deal.
True, but not what the conversation was about.
All three of these situations are different than dubs. In the first two cases you have people using an existing work to realize a unique artistic vision, combining what was already there with their own perspective and self expression. A remake (and another instance of a play performance) doesn’t replace the original, as its an entirely separate work. In the last case you have the original creators of something working around a fact of life, and still doing their best to realize their own vision.
In the case of a dub you have a localization company contracted by a publishing company to produce a product. Their objective isn’t to create a new work of art, which is why its very rare for someone to say “you should watch the original first then the dub for the best experience”, like they do for, say, Suspiria (1977) and Suspiria (2018).
The desired outcome of a dub is to provide as close to the same experience as possible to the original, but in a different language. So essentially the producers of the dub are trying to do the same job as the original director. The thing is that almost everything about the quality of a movie performance is attributed to the dynamic between director and actor. People literally write books about how a specific performance came to be, specific things that a director said to an actor, specific events that happened to take place on set. If I said “give me access to the same actors and cameras and hand me a script and I could do as good of a job as Steven Spielberg” people would think I was insane.
So why is it SUCH a controversial statement to say that maybe Bobson Dugnut at a random localization company may have done a worse job than someone like Yoko Taro or Hayao Miyazaki?
And favouring walking and riding a bicycle over driving a car is gatekeeping of transport because it keeps out the disabled. What a bizarre argument/accusation.
It doesn’t, as long as your reading skills are above that of a 12-year-old.
Bruh, what? Non-English films aren’t dubbed enough in the first place for this to be a metric for a “subculture”.
Car-centric infrastructure is far more detrimental to people with mobility impairments than any other mode of transportation. I would recommend you research what gold urbanism is if you’re saying stuff like this.
Reading literally engages different parts of your brain that are otherwise dormant. And as I mentioned, sometimes I want to watch stuff while high. Sometimes I want to give my eyes a break from using my glasses or reading things in fine detail.
I didn’t mention this before, but it is also very common for myself and a lot of other people to be doing other things and having TV on in the background. While i’m working or cooking or doing dishes or engaging in hobbies like soldering or woodworking. Especially with incredibly long anime like One Piece… That is a whole lot of hours to dedicate to doing absolutely nothing else. Netflix has talked about how they make “second screen” content now. Personally I find the idea of scrolling some social media in your phone while watching something to be a terrible idea, but its also often enjoyable to just listen to an anime.
Sure.
For me that’s a plus. I can listen to Matt Mercer’s duldct tones all day.
I look up my favorite voice actors and see what else they have been in to decide what to watch next. I think a LOT of people do this, with live action actors moreso.
I’ll have to respectfully disagree on this. More power to Matt and his prolific career, but man, can we please have some other voices.
Edit: My goal is to be immersed in the story, and having a small group of VAs work on everything becomes distracting, in my experience.