Additionally a huge portion of the dead were at the techno festival and at the kibbutzim.

That’s right, but that’s also where the friendly fire took place, according to Asa Winstanley’s article that I linked.

Look, all in all it’s probably true that Hamas murdered several hundred civilians that day regardless. But I also don’t think there’s a viable way for a paramilitary group based in Gaza to do an uprising against Israel that doesn’t end with several hundred civilians dead, as I explained, because Israel is a settler-colony and the use of settlers as the tip of the spear of the Israeli effort to settle Palestine is a central part of the project.

Moral comparisons between the actions Israel and Palestine take are always apples to oranges. You simply can’t equate violence against the oppressed to violence against the oppressor. A future without violence against anyone is what the oppressed are attempting to build by defending themselves against their oppressors, after all, but you can’t defend yourself without violence.

They didn’t reply and my first account got banned, so just in case some smart-aleck is reading this thread in the future and they think: “Well they didn’t say the tank man was murdered, they just said that some civilian was murdered after that picture was taken”

1. That’s a picture of tanks leaving Tiananmen Square after it had been evacuated. No one was killed at Tiananmen Square before or after this picture was taken during the 1989 protests. People were killed in other streets surrounding Tiananmen Square.
2. @unknownuserunknownlocation@kbin.earth did imply they believe the tank man was later tracked down by the government and killed., just after the video ends.

Those who interviewed the witnesses:

concluded that there were “reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the October 7 attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.”

There wasn’t necessarily 3 separate occasions of gang rpe, there were at least 3 locations where either rpe or gang r*pe occured. Later on they state that it was unclear that any of this sexual violence was planned at all,

Available evidence did not permit Human Rights Watch to draw conclusions regarding the specific identity of those who committed crimes involving sexual and gender-based, or whether these crimes were planned by the Palestinian armed groups who ordered the attacks.

My honest assessment here is that it’s unclear how much Hamas is culpable for this. I’d encourage you to check out Norm Finkelstein’s analysis of this report and others from his interview with Robinson Erhardt. I can fully understand if you want to err on the side of caution and say that this is condemnable in the absence of some evidence that it was only the actions of individual Hamas fighters disobeying orders.

Well Goat is specifically saying that Hamas ought to use the internet instead of something, right? I can understand criticizing the murder of civilians during October 7th. However, to this day it’s not known how many civilians Hamas killed in their operation. The figure of 1200 dead Israelis has never been broken down into military and civilian casualties. Israel has also admitted there was massive amounts of friendly fire. So even condemning Hamas for “killing innocent civilians” is questionable; after all, how could Hamas actually carry out a military operation against Israel without killing civilians, when Israel has always made strategic use of the combination of the civilian population as settler colonialists, and the military apparatus that can protect them while maintaining a veneer of legality?

The documentary No Other Land did a very good job of showing that latter point, by the way. In Israel the settlers and the military act hand in hand. If you want to do a military operation against them, it’s never going to be fully possible to be discriminate, even if it’s desirable to have a legitimate resistance movement.

There will never be a time where principled anarchists are not also called “tankies” by liberals. If you believe in the use of revolutionary violence and the defense of a revolution, you will be called a “tankie.”

Thank you for a source.

Human Rights Watch was not able to gather verifiable information through interviews with survivors of or witnesses to rape during the assault on October 7, and there is only one public account reportedly from such a survivor.

You don’t see why saying this about Gaza is patently absurd? They don’t have a functioning government. The whole place is nothing but rubble and families trying to find the bodies of their loved ones buried underneath that rubble. They’ve been subjected to 2 years of constant aerial bombardment, as if the previous decades of occupation, no access to clean water or any economic contact with the rest of the world wasn’t bad enough. It just strikes me as something one can only say if they don’t know anything about the situation at hand, and they only know that Gaza is a city and Palestine is a country.

Like seriously, they live in a concentration camp. Would you say anything like this about the inmates of Auschwitz? Oh no, some of them are misogynists! Oh no, some of them have backwards social views on queer people! Can you do something about the gas chambers first before you deal with those topics, though?

The Zionism in question is with regards to what goat is defending (really, they’re not defending it outright because it appears they were afraid of getting banned). I made a thread about it separately, https://lemmy.ml/post/41587368?scrollToComments=true

Essentially what goat is saying is that Palestinians are not allowed to resist Israel militarily, only by cultural means. This is particularly heinous because Palestinians have been using peaceful means to resist Israel since the Nakba. That’s what BDS is, that’s what the 2018 March of Return was. Palestinians have made tons of efforts to peacefully assert their human rights because they generally don’t even have much to fight with, anyway. They don’t have a state, they don’t have modern military capabilities beyond the things they’re capable of refurbishing after the IDF drops hardware in Gaza, and they’re cut off from their allies by the Israeli blockade around Gaza. What a lot of Zionists don’t understand is that the Palestinian Resistance is the last resort of Palestine because they are being exterminated.

A lot of goat’s argument centered on claims of sexual violence committed against women during October 7th. This is a false narrative that Hamas ordered mass sexual assault, and Israel never presented serious evidence of this. This is the position of the scholars of this conflict, too, it’s generally regarded that there’s no evidence that any mass rape took place that day. That’s why I was saying this was nothing more than Hasbara (i.e. official Israeli propaganda) and why they got banned so quickly.

As opposed to the keyboard warrior fighting in favor of those things?

Cowbee actually defends his arguments and isn’t afraid to say them when he’s in communities that disagree with him

Here’s goat doing the exact opposite: https://reddthat.com/post/58007592/24065167

Goat wasn’t banned for winning a debate. Goat was banned for Zionism.

https://reddthat.com/post/58007592/24067404

Those were Goat’s words. Goat said the following:

don’t rape, don’t carry out terrorism on innocent civilians

The right way was using the internet and global attention, which Palestine was doing, raising awareness of how they are suffering and gaining sympathy for it. They should’ve adopted more Western ideals, or maybe liberalism, encourage foreigners to come and stay. The West Bank and Gaza near Rafah were also doing decently well in terms of growth, labelling itself as a trendy tourist destination.

Unfortunately, Hamas decided that raping women and killing innocent civilians was a better method of resistance, even going so far as to film themselves carrying out the massacre and taking hostages – Which incurred the Israeli military and ended up with Gaza being turned to rubble. Sure, people are much more aware of Palestine now, but only the most radical of “progressives” think Israel can be defeated and that Palestine can do no wrong. These people are vocal minorities and hold no power.

The whole relationship between Israel and the US isn’t as buddy-buddy as people think it is. Israel previously attacked US forces and regularly threatens US personnel. No clue what goes on behind the scenes, but clearly Israel has something major on the US, or the US sees Israel as a base for Middle-East operations and considers the chaos that comes with it as a necessary sacrifice. Or maybe it’s both, or maybe it’s neither.

As opposed to other spaces, where they don’t ban you.