The Qur’an. It seems to assume the Bible is true and a real revelation and that it is a biblical commentary, despite clearly contradicting it in numerous places. It makes sense in the context that it came from an illiterate Bedouin paedophile from the 600s
Depends on the respect of the Sabbath. During the time of Jesus, the Pharisees got extremely legalistic.
Matthew 12:1-8
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”
Here they were plucking to eat, not to work. It is worth noting later on that Christians moved Sabbath to Sunday from the previous Saturday. So in the way it previously was kept? No. But rest is important. In terms of the law:
Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he (Jesus) said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
By this, the law was fulfilled and the legalistic framework was abolished. The law is based on these.
It comes to a head in the Jerusalem council when gentiles were exempt from the majority of Jewish laws, apart from taking part in idol sacrifices (or food sacrificed to idols) and eating blood. Although some would say the latter is more about canon law and hygiene within that church which is no longer operating, in comparison to being a sin, but that’s another topic. At it’s strictest, that is it. I won’t paste the whole Jerusalem Council here, but it’s in Acts 15.
If someone is neutral towards Jesus, is he considered for or against him?
By “neutral” I’ll take that to mean “non religious but I don’t hate you.” Then he’s against.
Mark 9:38-41
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us. For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.
This is the context I assume you’re talking about. As you can see, the person in the example here wasn’t literally following the disciples in terms of their journey and mission, but still accepted Jesus as the Messiah. So that person was a Christian. Think of like a layperson - not in ministry, maybe even part of a different Christian Church. They aren’t against Christ. Jesus gave an example that even if the only interaction His disciples have with someone is that they give one of them water because they are a disciple, they won’t lose their reward because they didn’t drop everything to travel with Him like they all did.
3:
2 Samuel 24:1 ESV
Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
In this context, God doesn’t tempt. Some translations translate “he” as “it” as in the hebrew it’s not as determinative as it is in English. We know this from later on:
2 Samuel 24:10
But David’s heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O Lord, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly.”
So David knew what he did was wrong already - so it couldn’t have been a command from God. So with Context, the writer clearly didn’t mean that God commanded David to take census. This is backed up by 1 Chronicles 21:1
Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.
So it was clearly Satan. It would have been a job-like scenario where God loosens His protection for a moment.
1 Chronicles 21:4-6
But the king’s word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came back to Jerusalem. And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword. But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Joab.
2 Samuel 24:8-9
So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to the king: in Israel there were 800,000 valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were 500,000.
2 Samuel shows the actual sum given to the King. 1 Chronicles shows the actual sum taken and explains the discrepancy by saying Levi and Benjamin weren’t included
At times Jesus was silent when given trap questions. Other times He spoke. He didn’t really argue that much, moreso just exposed the hypocrisy of the sham trial.
And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
God cannot change.
Malachi 3:6
For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8-9
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
He can make concessions for a time but He doesn’t change.
Yes and no. It’s not the same as human jealousy/covetness. God’s jealousy is based on pure perfect passion, care and love. Human jealousy is generally based on materialism, popularity, etc.
Exodus 20:5-6, 17
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
No. But He can allow Satan to tempt people.
James 1:13-15
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Job 1:7-12
The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
God Himself was tempted. He made Himself vulnerable to it. Jesus was led into temptation’s path by the Holy Spirit for this test, but He wasn’t tempted by God. Just less protected. Although Jesus, being God Himself didn’t give into the temptation, unlike David.
Matthew 4:1-3
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”
I have yet to find one “contradiction” that actually holds any water. Usually it boils down to one writer describing angels as men while the other describes them as angels, or another writer mentioning details that another didn’t. If anything, it shows a lack of corroboration which makes them more reliable, especially between John and the Synoptics. There’s nothing that’s actually contradictory
The insane beauty of debating a religious nut is knowing that any logic can instantly be countered by them reaching into their pocket and . . . POOF! Magic.
EDIT: With that in mind, enjoy this link. Don’t bother coming back. I’ll just scoff derisively.
Uh, I’m pretty sure the Qur’an is pretty explicit in naming the Bible and Torah as corrupted text that was modified with intent to change the meaning and resultant laws.
I mean its entire basis is that it has remained unchanged ever since it was revealed, hence there are no versions/revisions like the Bible.
Uh, I’m pretty sure the Qur’an is pretty explicit in naming the Bible and Torah as corrupted text that was modified with intent to change the meaning and resultant laws.
No, it’s not. In fact, on this hill the Qur’an falls apart.
The Qur’an doesn’t ever mention the Bible and the Torah as corrupted.
Surah 5:47
So let the people of the Gospel judge by what allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious
(This assumes we still have said Gospel)
Surah 5:66
Someone among them(Christians) are upright yet many do nothing but evil
So there are good Gospel followers about - meaning they must have the Gospel. So we know the Gospel existed in Mohammed’s time uncorrupted. Thankfully, we still know what the Bible looked like back then. And it is essentially the same as what we have now.
Surah 3:3-4
He has revealed to you oh prophet, the book in truth, confirming what came before (in his time) it the Torah and the Gospel previously, as a guide for people, and also revealed the standard to distinguish right from wrong. Surely those who reject allah’s revelations will suffer severe torment. For allah is almighty and capable of punishment
So the Torah and Gospel are both revelations from allah. And they are thus the word of allah.
Surah 6:34
“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,”
Surah 6:115
“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all,”
Surah 10:64
“For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity,”
So the words of allah, such as the Gospel cannot be corrupted. So if the Gospel was corrupted, Islam is false. If the Gospel wasn’t corrupted then it doesn’t “confirm” the Qur’an at all, so Islam is false. This is the Islamic Dilemma.
Interestingly enough, the Hadith records that the Qur’an was changed:
Sahih Muslim Book 4, Hadith Number 1787.
SAHIH MUSLIM BOOK 4. PRAYER
Chapter : Excellence of one who acts upon (the teachings of the) Qur’an and one who teaches it.
Ubayy b. Ka’b reported: I was in the mosque when a man entered and prayed and recited (the Qur’an) in a style to which I objected. Then another man entered (the mosque) and recited in a style different from that of his companion. When we had finished the prayer, we all went to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said to him: This man recited in a style to which I objected, and the other entered and recited in a style different from that of his companion. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) asked them to recite and so they recited, and the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) expressed approval of their affairs (their modes of recitation) and there occurred In my mind a sort of denial which did not occur even during the Days of Ignorance. When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) saw how I was affected (by a wrong idea), he struck my chest, whereupon I broke into sweating and felt as though I were looking at Allah with fear. He (the Holy Prophet) said to me: Ubayy, a message was sent to me to recite the Qur’an in one dialect, and I replied: Make (things) easy for my people. It was conveyed to me for the second time that it should be recited in two dialects. I again replied to him: Make affairs easy for my people. It was again conveyed to me for the third time to recite in seven dialects And (I was further told): You have got a seeking for every reply that I sent you, which you should seek from Me. I said: O Allah ! forgive my people, forgive my people, and I have deferred the third one for the day on which the entire creation will turn to me, including even Ibrahim (peace be upon him) (for intercession).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 41, Hadith Number 601.
SAHIH BUKHARI BOOK 41. LOANS, PAYMENT OF LOANS, FREEZING OF PROPERTY, BANKRUPTCY.
Narated By ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab : I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to that of mine. Allah’s Apostle had taught it to me (in a different way). So, I was about to quarrel with him (during the prayer) but I waited till he finished, then I tied his garment round his neck and seized him by it and brought him to Allah’s Apostle and said, “I have heard him reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to the way you taught it to me.” The Prophet ordered me to release him and asked Hisham to recite it. When he recited it, Allah s Apostle said, “It was revealed in this way.” He then asked me to recite it. When I recited it, he said, “It was revealed in this way. The Qur’an has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easier for you.”
I mean its literally right at the beginning in Surah 2:75 and 2:79, which is why I remember:
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allāh and then distort it [i.e., the Torah] after they had understood it while they were knowing?
So woe to those who write the scripture with their own hands, then say, This is from Allāh, in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
So the words of allah, such as the Gospel cannot be corrupted. So if the Gospel was corrupted, Islam is false. If the Gospel wasn’t corrupted then it doesn’t “confirm” the Qur’an at all, so Islam is false. This is the Islamic Dilemma.
Is such a weird argument that makes no sense from what you just provided. AFAIK the quote you gave is talking about “words of Allah”, which indicates his power and decree, ie everything that happens is because of him, and it will happen. Nowhere does it imply that his revelation cannot be altered by humans.
I would talk about the Qur’an also explicitly stating about its superceded position, but you quoted your first quote wrong:
Surah 4:57 is:
But those who believe and do righteous deeds - We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide forever. For them therein are purified spouses, and We will admit them to deepening shade.
So I’m not really sure which quote you meant to use.
As for the 7 versions, those were specific subdialects on how the pronunciation slightly changed that you can still find today but no one uses since they decided to standardize on one when writing it during the first caliphate iirc.
It says “after they had understood it” and doesn’t imply writing.
This is backed by 2:74
Even then your hearts became hardened like a rock or even harder, for some rocks gush rivers; others split, spilling water; while others are humbled in awe of Allah. And Allah is never unaware of what you do.
It seems to be referring to present tense. It goes on:
2:75
Do you ˹believers still˺ expect them to be true to you, though a group of them would hear the word of Allah then knowingly corrupt it after understanding it?
So, a group of them corrupted it. Only a group would corrupt their beliefs.
2:89 goes on to make it clear they still had the scripture “in their hands”
Although they used to pray for victory ˹by means of the Prophet˺ over the polytheists, when there came to them a Book from Allah which they recognized, confirming the Scripture they had ˹in their hands˺, they rejected it. So may Allah’s condemnation be upon the disbelievers.
In addition, the Qur’an does ask it’s followers to check with Christians on if it’s true or not.
Surah 10:94
If you are in doubt about what we have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Book before you.
I also apologise for my typo. I meant 5:47, not 4:57 and have amended it
The Qur’an. It seems to assume the Bible is true and a real revelation and that it is a biblical commentary, despite clearly contradicting it in numerous places. It makes sense in the context that it came from an illiterate Bedouin paedophile from the 600s
The Bible contradicts itself in multiple places, so that’s keeping up with the theme.
No it doesn’t
Answer me these citing the bible verse you’re using to justify your answer:
Depends on the respect of the Sabbath. During the time of Jesus, the Pharisees got extremely legalistic.
Matthew 12:1-8
Here they were plucking to eat, not to work. It is worth noting later on that Christians moved Sabbath to Sunday from the previous Saturday. So in the way it previously was kept? No. But rest is important. In terms of the law:
Matthew 22:36-40
By this, the law was fulfilled and the legalistic framework was abolished. The law is based on these.
It comes to a head in the Jerusalem council when gentiles were exempt from the majority of Jewish laws, apart from taking part in idol sacrifices (or food sacrificed to idols) and eating blood. Although some would say the latter is more about canon law and hygiene within that church which is no longer operating, in comparison to being a sin, but that’s another topic. At it’s strictest, that is it. I won’t paste the whole Jerusalem Council here, but it’s in Acts 15.
By “neutral” I’ll take that to mean “non religious but I don’t hate you.” Then he’s against.
Mark 9:38-41
This is the context I assume you’re talking about. As you can see, the person in the example here wasn’t literally following the disciples in terms of their journey and mission, but still accepted Jesus as the Messiah. So that person was a Christian. Think of like a layperson - not in ministry, maybe even part of a different Christian Church. They aren’t against Christ. Jesus gave an example that even if the only interaction His disciples have with someone is that they give one of them water because they are a disciple, they won’t lose their reward because they didn’t drop everything to travel with Him like they all did.
3:
2 Samuel 24:1 ESV
In this context, God doesn’t tempt. Some translations translate “he” as “it” as in the hebrew it’s not as determinative as it is in English. We know this from later on:
2 Samuel 24:10
So David knew what he did was wrong already - so it couldn’t have been a command from God. So with Context, the writer clearly didn’t mean that God commanded David to take census. This is backed up by 1 Chronicles 21:1
So it was clearly Satan. It would have been a job-like scenario where God loosens His protection for a moment.
1 Chronicles 21:4-6
2 Samuel 24:8-9
2 Samuel shows the actual sum given to the King. 1 Chronicles shows the actual sum taken and explains the discrepancy by saying Levi and Benjamin weren’t included
At times Jesus was silent when given trap questions. Other times He spoke. He didn’t really argue that much, moreso just exposed the hypocrisy of the sham trial.
God cannot change.
Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8-9
James 1:17
He can make concessions for a time but He doesn’t change.
Yes and no. It’s not the same as human jealousy/covetness. God’s jealousy is based on pure perfect passion, care and love. Human jealousy is generally based on materialism, popularity, etc.
Exodus 20:5-6, 17
No. But He can allow Satan to tempt people.
James 1:13-15
Job 1:7-12
God Himself was tempted. He made Himself vulnerable to it. Jesus was led into temptation’s path by the Holy Spirit for this test, but He wasn’t tempted by God. Just less protected. Although Jesus, being God Himself didn’t give into the temptation, unlike David.
Matthew 4:1-3
Lmao. You’re not serious.
I have yet to find one “contradiction” that actually holds any water. Usually it boils down to one writer describing angels as men while the other describes them as angels, or another writer mentioning details that another didn’t. If anything, it shows a lack of corroboration which makes them more reliable, especially between John and the Synoptics. There’s nothing that’s actually contradictory
There is no god and religion is a mental illness.
Oh wow, this is it, the killer argument! 🤣
The insane beauty of debating a religious nut is knowing that any logic can instantly be countered by them reaching into their pocket and . . . POOF! Magic.
EDIT: With that in mind, enjoy this link. Don’t bother coming back. I’ll just scoff derisively.
Most of the Qur’an is about law or in other words the Sharia
Uh, I’m pretty sure the Qur’an is pretty explicit in naming the Bible and Torah as corrupted text that was modified with intent to change the meaning and resultant laws.
I mean its entire basis is that it has remained unchanged ever since it was revealed, hence there are no versions/revisions like the Bible.
No, it’s not. In fact, on this hill the Qur’an falls apart.
The Qur’an doesn’t ever mention the Bible and the Torah as corrupted.
Surah 5:47
(This assumes we still have said Gospel)
Surah 5:66
So there are good Gospel followers about - meaning they must have the Gospel. So we know the Gospel existed in Mohammed’s time uncorrupted. Thankfully, we still know what the Bible looked like back then. And it is essentially the same as what we have now.
Surah 3:3-4
So the Torah and Gospel are both revelations from allah. And they are thus the word of allah.
Surah 6:34
Surah 6:115
Surah 10:64
So the words of allah, such as the Gospel cannot be corrupted. So if the Gospel was corrupted, Islam is false. If the Gospel wasn’t corrupted then it doesn’t “confirm” the Qur’an at all, so Islam is false. This is the Islamic Dilemma.
Interestingly enough, the Hadith records that the Qur’an was changed:
Sahih Muslim Book 4, Hadith Number 1787.
SAHIH MUSLIM BOOK 4. PRAYER
Chapter : Excellence of one who acts upon (the teachings of the) Qur’an and one who teaches it.
https://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/sahih-muslim-book-04-prayer/sahih-muslim-book-004-hadith-number-1787
Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 41, Hadith Number 601.
SAHIH BUKHARI BOOK 41. LOANS, PAYMENT OF LOANS, FREEZING OF PROPERTY, BANKRUPTCY.
https://hadithcollection.com/sahihbukhari/sahih-bukhari-book-41-loans-payment-of-loans-freezing-of-property-bankruptcy/sahih-bukhari-volume-003-book-041-hadith-number-601
I mean its literally right at the beginning in Surah 2:75 and 2:79, which is why I remember:
Is such a weird argument that makes no sense from what you just provided. AFAIK the quote you gave is talking about “words of Allah”, which indicates his power and decree, ie everything that happens is because of him, and it will happen. Nowhere does it imply that his revelation cannot be altered by humans.
I would talk about the Qur’an also explicitly stating about its superceded position, but you quoted your first quote wrong:
Surah 4:57 is:
So I’m not really sure which quote you meant to use.
As for the 7 versions, those were specific subdialects on how the pronunciation slightly changed that you can still find today but no one uses since they decided to standardize on one when writing it during the first caliphate iirc.
It says “after they had understood it” and doesn’t imply writing.
This is backed by 2:74
It seems to be referring to present tense. It goes on:
2:75
So, a group of them corrupted it. Only a group would corrupt their beliefs.
2:89 goes on to make it clear they still had the scripture “in their hands”
In addition, the Qur’an does ask it’s followers to check with Christians on if it’s true or not.
Surah 10:94
I also apologise for my typo. I meant 5:47, not 4:57 and have amended it