That‘s nice but I‘ll wait until reviews flock in to confirm this. There is a point when a studio is too big to pre-order. I‘ve seen this pattern before and know better than to ride the hype wave from one super success all the way to the next „more ambitious than ever“ title.
Preordering in general is nuts.
For smaller (indie) studios it can make sense. If the game costs more money to developed than the developer has, preordering is indistinguishable from crowdsourcing like kickstarter. It removes the need for the developer to take a loan and investors, possibly giving up creative freedom.
Anything backed by a (big-ish) publisher should never be preordered!
You know. I have never once heard a single company admit that they are just gonna release some mediocre pos product. They all say the next thing will be the best thing since sliced bread. Not saying I doubt them. But a company will never be like “we gonna phone it in and release an at best 36% complete product.”
It’s like Apple every year who proudly boasts on stage that they just made the best iPhone ever. Yeah no shit, that’s what they are supposed to do each year.
Larian is very ambitious in their aims. Divinity: OS, DOS2, and Baldur’s Gate 3 were all huge games with incredible interactions and stories, and the games hold together even if you intentionally make an effort to break them by being a murder hobo or just not playing “correctly.” Their games are pretty awesome, because there is no “correct” way to play them, they’re very wide open and flexible.
I don’t always like everything they do (in fact, I kinda hate BG3), but I respect their efforts. They don’t half-ass anything.
Yeah, marketing
They do say it sometimes, like Microsoft admitting defeat on this year’s Call of Duty. It’s not, “We’re going to release a mediocre product,” but when they say, “We hear you, and we’re making changes” or “we’ve made the difficult decision to…” or “we’re trying to stay agile”, that’s usually what it means. Beyond just hyping up their next product, there’s substantive information in here, like engine upgrades, expansion of the studio, reduction in production timelines, the damn genre of the video game (because that wasn’t a foregone conclusion given this series), etc.
With the money they made from BG3 they have the means to make Divinity the best it can possibly be and I couldn’t be happier for them. The first two Divinity games were great, don’t get me wrong, but they were basically low budget when compared to the money they got from Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast to make BG3. I imagine they basically have “fuck you” money now and can do whatever the hell they want. They definitely deserve it and I can’t wait.
Edit: Turns out Larian is going to use gen AI for concept art. I guess fuck all those concept artists trying to get entry level jobs. Very disappointed.
Their concept artists are allowed to use some generative AI tools to explore ideas and speed up their workflow. They’re currently hiring a bunch more concept artists (both juniors and a senior character artist) so if you’re trying to get a job: https://larian.com/careers/4fd694b3-ece7-4307-9949-15cac512a815
Great place to go if you’re looking for a concept artist job.
Edit: Turns out Larian is going to use gen AI for concept art. I guess fuck all those concept artists trying to get entry level jobs. Very disappointed.
It’s misinformation. They have almost 30 concept artists employed. They use GenAI for quick ideation, not for concept art.
Also, corpos are alllowed and in some cases are required to lie, even the “good ones” like Larian. And now, when they have more money then ever, they become less trustworthy than ever. This slope is very slippery. Nothing stops them from overextending their ideas, and when a lot of money involved, I can forsee “well, we need to finish quickly, and we’re already use llm anyway, let it help with the script, and since it’s already in the script no reason not to let it generate some art, and well, since it’s already everywhere, why don’t we generate the code with it”
Soo… “Larian just said they use AI, but corpos lie” - meaning they don’t use AI and Swen lied to generate online outrage?
Because, considering they have active job openings for art and concept positions, we know they’re not replacing people with AI.
This is pretty insane misinterpretation of my words, you need to read every second word, and be overall unbelievably unserious person to do that
Yeah, I had trouble understanding your point. Could you elaborate?
My point is pretty simple: they said they only use LLM “for good”, but the more they get, the more insensitive they get to lie, so your “but they said [bla bla]” argument can’t hold. If they started using it for something, the only thing stopping them from using it for everything is their reputation and the desire to make a good game, and the more money is on the line, the less value that desire holds in the face of immediate profits.
I love everything Larian did before, I’m a huge fan of the Divinity series, BG3 is still my top 5 favourite games of all time, but this doesn’t mean all that can’t go to shit, wouldn’t be the first.OK, yeah, I get what you mean now.
I don’t agree on a fundamental level, though. Anything and everything could go to shit at any time. You could get killed on a bus stop, your favourite grocery brand might be outed to be using slave labour, Larian could start using AI instead of human work for everything…
With that approach, might as well hide in the woods, disconnect from civilisation and wait for the world to end.
I personally reject that attitude. I think we should support what’s good while it’s good and stop supporting it when it goes bad. And, to me, the way Larian uses AI is not “it went bad already”. Like it or not, the tools exist. They’re everywhere. A single (small-ish) company rejecting its use out of principle is not going to make a dent on that, it won’t even be registered within the margin of error among the billions, if not trillions, of monthly impressions AI companies get from teenagers talking to chat-bots.
And even if it did, it doesn’t matter - AI companies are not making profit anyway. Actually, fewer users is better for them, because they’re actively losing money every time someone uses their product. The whole AI bubble is propped up on the largest circlejerk in history and users are the least important, if not flat out insignificant, aspect of it.
I think there are good ways to use AI. Like Corridor Crew, using it to create things that are just financially completely out of their range. It can allow people to bridge the gap between small and massive productions.
And don’t get me wrong, the fact that it’s originally trained on stolen data is important, but… Kind of irrelevant in this case - and that’s for two reasons:
- Companies like Corridor Crew mostly use AI that they self-train, which means that no stealing happens. We don’t know what Larian does.
- Even if Larian uses publicly available models that are trained on stolen data… fuck me, we should be going after the people who stole the data, not the end users!
Would I prefer if they didn’t use AI at all? Sure! But am I going to start shitting on the entire company just because they do? Hell no! Their products are still made with care and love and humanity at their core. Just listen to interviews from Jennifer English or Neil Newbon - they praise both the VO company and Larian for their amazing approach.
And finally - the “war on Larian” would make much more sense if we also learned that they’re firing concept artists - but they’re doing the opposite - they have open positions for concept artists, character artists, environment artists, etc., etc. They’re currently hiring these people!
So, yeah, it’s just a lot of noise over practically nothing, in my opinion.
Yeah, first two games Divine Divinity and Beyond Divinity were awesome!
deleted by creator
I believe them. Larian has done well.
Larian is the only studio where I believe the hype.
At first, Larian had planned to continue working with Hasbro’s Wizards of the Coast division on Dungeons & Dragons, but Vincke said he and his team spent a few months working on a new project before realizing they weren’t feeling the excitement they once did. “Conceptually, all of the ingredients for a really cool game were there except the hearts of the developers,” he said. They abandoned that game last year and pivoted to Divinity, a franchise that Larian also happens to own.
It’s crazy they have the finances to be working on a D&D franchise game and decide “…Nah. Let’s do something else.”
They recently switched to a new engine…
Uh oh.
I know folks like to hate on Unity, and Borderlands 3. Rightfully so. But let me list out some “in house engine” releases:
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Cyberpunk 2077, which Nvidia backing
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Mass Effect Andromeda, after previously being Unreal
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Starfield
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Paradox Grand Strategy, like Stellaris
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A “smaller studio” example, Distant Worlds 2
All these drug their developers through hell, and we’re still technical messes at release. And after.
Now let’s look at some others:
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KCD2: CryEngine
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Expedition 33: Unreal
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Black Myth Wukong: Unreal
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Stray: Unreal
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As a “smaller studio” example, Satisfactory: Unreal
…I’m just saying. Making a modern engine from scratch is hard. There are just too many things to worry about. And the record of “RPG studios rolling a new in house engine” is not great.
So what I hope this means is Larian moving to CryEngine or something like that, and not making something from scratch. But if they’re talking about early access so soon, I bet they licensed another engine.
…I’m just saying. Making a modern engine from scratch is hard. There are just too many things to worry about. And the record of “RPG studios rolling a new in house engine” is not great.
Larian’s track record is good. They used an in-house engine for Divinity: Original Sin, Divinity: Original Sin 2, and Baldur’s Gate 3. They also made their own game engine for their older Divinity titles (Divine Divinity and Beyond Divinity). And Vincke attributes at least part of their success to using in-house tools instead of “off the shelf” engines.
Re D&D,
It’s because Hasbro gutted the D&D division and burned their goodwill with Larian. https://www.pcgamer.com/theres-almost-nobody-left-ceo-of-baldurs-gate-3-dev-swen-vincke-says-the-dandd-team-he-initially-worked-with-is-gone-due-to-hasbro-layoffs/
Hasbro could have done nothing and made a bunch of money, but they chose temporary short term gains. Baldur’s Gate 4 will arrive far sooner than you think, and it will be terrible.
WTF. That’s awful, and also totally baffling. “This single game is responsible for a huge chunk of revenue and introducting countless people to D&D; let’s lay off its staff and leadership.”
Baldur’s Gate 4 will arrive far sooner than you think, and it will be terrible.
What do you mean by this? An outsourced spinoff is already in the works? I don’t see that in the linked article.
Nothing has been announced as far as Baldur’s Gate 4 goes yet. It looks like Hasbro is being a little bit smart and are going to try and make (“make”) a handful of other smaller games, like the recent Warlock game announcement.
But at some point Baldur’s Gate 4 will be announced, but Hasbro isn’t going to be willing to invest properly into it in order to make a good game.
like the recent Warlock game announcement.
That’s a very… abstract trailer.
Yeah, I’m suspicious too.
They said very little about what that new engine entails, but much like Starfield, I suspect it’s largely reusing their old engine and only remaking select parts of it. Larian is doing something in the RPG space that, to me, makes nearly all of their competitors feel outdated, and it makes sense to me to make their own engine to do that as efficiently as possible. To make one of their games in an off the shelf engine like Unreal, with all of the bespoke physics objects and the ways every entity interacts with spells, elements, and other effects, could easily result in huge performance costs above and beyond what we saw in Act 3 of BG3.
Depends how much they “redo”.
I’m utterly terrified of them pulling an Andromeda/2077 and getting stuck in dev hell trying to debug the new engine bits instead of actually building the game. This is the advantage of prebuilt engines: someone else has already one all the hardware support/optimization and contemporary architecture stuff for you.
I’m less afraid of them pulling a Starfield, I suppose. The “divinity engine” in BG3 already runs okay. It’s not sleek like CryEngine KCD2, but it doesn’t feel janky or dated either, and even the mildest refresh over BG3 would be fine.
Much less is determined by engine than the average person thinks. Andromeda wasn’t a new engine; it was an engine that was made to make Battlefield games that then had to be used to make action RPGs and racing games after the fact. Capcom made an engine for the games they had in mind 10 years ago, and it’s fantastic at Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, and even serving as an emulation wrapper, but it’s showing cracks under the support for open world games that they added more recently. Larian’s engine is made to support the systems driven RPGs they conceptualized in the early 2010s, and there’s little chance some other engine will do it just as well or better without plenty of custom code anyway. Ask Digital Foundry about all of the “optimization” Unreal 5 has done for developers already.
This is a fair point. When I made the original comment, I didn’t realize their in house engine went so far back:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity_Engine
If they can shoehorn in something akin to KCD2’s or Satisfactory’s Global Illumination, but keep their dev workflows and existing systems in place, that’d be perfect.
From the other Larian article in this community, it seems their engine improvements are largely things that they claim will allow them to iterate on ideas faster, like going right from mocap to a usable animation more quickly.
That sounds excellent.
I truly love that Larian leadership frames everything they talk about around devs and their needs/wants. Another D&D game? “Oh, that’s great and all, but our devs hearts weren’t in it so we dropped it like a rock.” New engine? They ramble about improvements to dev workflows. It is so obviously a top priority.
Keep in mind that also comes with Vincke championing AI, and though he says no genAI assets will make it to the final product, there’s still some dissent. Here’s hoping though.
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So is this a whole new divinity or a remake of the first divinity?
The first Divinity was called Divine Divinity, and it was closer to Diablo than Baldur’s Gate. As per this interview, this game is going to be the same style as BG3 and the Original Sin games.
Ngl that is a stupid ass name lol
Sure is!
Divine divinity: devilish divide divination edition. Serious Larian, how some outsider to get your fucking naming down.
There’s a Divinity dragon game, too, Divinity: Dragon Commander. It’s a RTS that’s set in the same world, but I rarely hear anyone mention it.
Learned about this for the first time earlier today watching Mortismal’s Divinity recap videos lol
I did know about Divine Divinity (which, fun fact, canonically features Lucian the Divine as your player character) but Dragon Commander completely missed my radar.
Iirc, they knew that it was stupid, their publisher forced it on them. They weren’t happy about it either.
So is this a whole new divinity or is this a remake of divine divinity?
Whole new game
If divinity is as good as the last two I’ll be happy and they’ve given me no reason to believe it won’t be.
And now, thanks to bg3, they have fuck you money. This next game is going to be insane.
Wooo! I’m very excited.
All these promises can quickly spiral into the No Man Sky/Cyberpunk issue where on release, it’s a shell of what peoples expectations were.
You might say, “Well they fixed it.” But only after running their staff ragged to meet broken promises.
I can understand this hesitation, but I don’t expect that from Larian, they’ve delivered in the past and I suspect they’ll deliver again.
(So had CD Projekt Red of course, but Cyberpunk’s launch issues were largely stability/performance related, IIRC. Whereas Hello Games over-promised and under-delivered core features on No Man’s Sky.)
Cyberpunk’s launch issues were largely stability/performance related
I played the first release when it came out. There were a LOT of mission-breaking bugs, missing content, much less customization options, entirely missing features, a really messy perk system etc. It feels like a very different game now, since they patched in more content that was initially missing.
Someone did a writeup of all the patches here.
They should’ve pushed back the game at least for another year. 1.0 mostly focused on the cutscenes and Johnny Silverhand/Keanu Reeves since that’s what sold the game initially and left a lot to be desired in other areas.
If I remember correctly, you couldn’t even skip the first training mission. You also had to combine clothes that looked like ass because the armor rating was tied to them and there was no cosmetics system (that came with 2.0).
Let’s be straight: as amazing as Baldur’s Gate 3 is today, Act 3 launched half baked and half broken. My first playthrough experience was horrible, largely thanks to broken flags and missing content from the Upper City, and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have comparable experiences with early versions of Original Sin 2. Hell, they rewrote basically the entire final act of that game with the definitive edition, and I’m under the impression Original Sin 1 had a similiar situation, though I didn’t play it enough between the original and the definitive edition to experience it.
Now, part of all this is because Larian opts to make decisions to cut content and reduce scope rather than abuse their staff or delay a project. In Baldur’s Gate specificslly, I won’t say I am perfectly happy with the outcome, but they are a good studio that practices reasonable employee ethics, and ultimately puts in the work to get there with the product as well. I’d have no issue buying Divinity day one or even pre-ordering, but I do not expect a perfectly complete and polished experience on release.
Act 3 launched half baked and half broken
It still has bugs to this day. I played through the whole game two months ago. The printing press mission was extremely broken. It’s a mission where you are supposed to swap out the headline in a printing press so a magazine doesn’t shit-talk your party. The mission progressed as intended, the press even praised me for swapping the article out and on the next day I still got shit-talked.
I had to do the whole mission again and talk to the printing press twice (for no reason) to fix it. Yenna in my camp also never cooked for me.
Larian announcing their next game to be even bigger than before makes me a bit cautious. I hope they don’t bite off more than they can chew.
I think with CDPR people had conveniently forgotten how much of a broken, buggy mess Witcher 3 was at release tbh. It wasn’t as broken as Cyberpunk but I think that it was also easily forgotten because people weren’t remotely as hyped for the game when it came out. CDPR actually has always had a track record of putting out really buggy games that get patched into great ones later.
New engine!?!? Like an upgrade to the divinity engine or a completely different engine?
Stirring hype has failed too many times. I’m sure they have big plans for the game and it’s going to be very good. However, promising so much so early just screams incoming drama to me.
LarAIn
Oh, stop with this nonsense.
They are employing almost 30 concept artists, their art style is extremely unique. Just look at the Elves in DOS2.
They use the tools available to them. If quick iteration of the “foundations” of ideas is improved by the use of GenAI, why not use it? It’s already integrated into the products they’re paying for (like Photoshop).
It’s like saying “they shouldn’t be using Google Images or artbooks when developing concept art”, it’s just silly.
The concepting stage is a really crucial and foundational stage in terms of design, but it can also influence writing, gameplay, etc. as an artist explores the thing they’re concepting.
I don’t like genAI, and think that using it at such an important stage will invariably mean it ends up influencing the game. I want to play games or experience media made with intention by people, not bland products shat out by a chatbot.
Larian: “We use cars to get to the gym”.
You: “The exercise at the gym stage is really crucial to building muscles. I don’t like cars and think that using it at such an important stage will inevitably mean it ends up influencing the training”.
Yeah it’s exactly like that mate lol, did you get ChatGPT to come up with that poor, poor analogy or are you just thick?
I mean, if you just want to invent and imagine things and then get angry at them, go ahead.
I’m just trying to tell you that Larian isn’t replacing anything or anyone with AI, they’re using it to help with the foundational stage of some processes, which is how it’s supposed to be used. Throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, then work off of that.
Like… It’s hilarious to complain about their use of AI like that in the context of the fact that they currently employ 27 concept artists and are hiring more.
I think maybe you’re having a different argument than me? I didn’t say they were replacing anyone or anything with AI.
What I have expressed an issue with is exactly what you described:
they’re using it to help with the foundational stage of some processes, which is how it’s supposed to be used. Throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, then work off of that.
And you dismissively and incorrectly compared that to driving to the gym.
I think maybe try a different LLM to come up with your arguments, maybe Claude? Because the one you’ve got thinking for you right now doesn’t seem to be working lad.
OK, let’s make this clear: do you think they’re using AI for making concept art?
And drop that LLM bit, it’s just tiring. It’s as old and tiresome as the “MS is paying you” bit.
Next level?
Ooooooh nooooo!
Too bad they are leaning into AI.
I really wouldn’t call it leaning into AI, they are using it for doing basic boring work and the CEO has even said he’s not even sure it actually helps that much with productivity. It’s really weird seeing the actual statements from Swen Vincke and then comparing it to articles saying he’s “heavily pushing AI” into employees, that just isn’t what’s happening.
I dislike AI as much as the next guy, but when even Clair Obscur launches with a few AI generated textures we have to just admit that AI is going to be used to some degree in a larger studio. So long as it doesn’t end up in the final product I don’t really care that much, it’s just kind of annoying.
Among the devs responding is a former Larian staffer, environment artist Selena Tobin. “consider my feedback: i loved working at @larianstudios.com until AI,” Tobin writes. “reconsider and change your direction, like, yesterday. show your employees some respect. they are world-class & do not need AI assistance to come up with amazing ideas.”
Honestly I’m prepared for LLM style sloppy writing. You don’t generate “placeholder concept art”. You just replaced a concept artists job and put the first ingredient for an AI slop game in your pipeline.
Jason Schreier released the full transcript of the interview and Swen Vincke never said they had “placeholder concept art” actually, he said that the artists had used AI to generate images that they then used as reference while drawing concept art. In the full interview he doesn’t even seem particularly impressed with AI, says that it doesn’t improve productivity much and implies that it is disappointing. I honestly respect Larian for actually coming out and sharing their experiences with using AI, even if I agree they should probably stop using it entirely, rather than doing what most other studios do and simply hide it under a rug and refuse to talk about it.
we have to just admit that AI is going to be used to some degree in a larger studio.
“we” don’t have to admit anything.
Well clearly we do when even Clair Obscur gets caught with AI generated assets in a fully released project and gets away with absolutely no hit to their reputation simply because they refuse to comment on it. I would rather more devs come out and talk about their AI use like Swen Vincke has done here instead of keeping it under wraps for fear of the mob dragging their reputation through the mud for daring to even look at the thing. Maybe then more devs would get real information on how useless AI is as a proper creative tool.
This is some Tim Sweeny “AI will be in everything” type BS
I really don’t think we should be using AI, I just think that it’s entirely unfair to describe Swen Vincke as “pushing AI” and I respect that he was willing to talk openly about it. However judging by the rabid hatred from everyone online I doubt he will ever talk about it again. Most developers that are using AI are almost definitely just keeping it quiet to avoid controversy right now. The Clair Obscur devs avoided the controversy of literally launching a game with AI generated content by quickly patching the game and refusing to give a statement to any journalist who tried to contact them about it and I suspect this will be the way going forward.
I’m probably the only person who thought baldurs gate 3 was a boring slog
Please bring back divinity
I don’t think it was a slog, but I do find DND 5e an unsatisfying system. You spend a long time waiting to get to the cool parts of your character, and unlimited resting breaks dnd’s already dubious balance.
It’s available heavily modded if you want a more challenging experience.
I tried a Pathfinder mod, but it wasn’t quite doing it for me. I’m not sure what would do it for me exactly. I’m being a stereotypical customer where I don’t know what I want, but I can tell you what I don’t like, heh.
Was it a collection or a single mod?
There’s a single mod that purports to convert the game to pathfinder 2e. I’m not sure if the balance isn’t to my taste or if I was doing something wrong, but my characters all had very low hit chances on their first attack. Missing isn’t fun for me
I believe it was this one: https://mod.io/g/baldursgate3/m/pathfinder2ndedition#description
The story was excellent, the combat was a slog. Still finished it and overall enjoyed it, but it felt like they were being limited by the DnD system a lot, ultimately worsening the experience.
