Basically, there was a discussion about how instances have rules and Feddit also needs to abide by local (Austrian) law to not get in legal trouble.
And I get called a Zionazi for saying that you cant just up and call for the massacre of civilians, regardless of which side you are on.
It’s also ironic for Dessalines to mock me for sticking to rules and laws to protect our instance.
Unjust laws should never be obeyed.
It’s not that simple though. Run an instance that is dedicated to German speakers and not a specific political standpoint. The laws we have to obey are hatespeech laws. The laws don’t ban antizionism, they however ban glorification of murdering innocents of a certain ethnicity. Doesn’t matter which ethnicity. Some people are just sore they can’t voice antizionist critiques without losing themselves in a violent and hateful dream.
Here’s the rub bud, if you really were fundamentally against Zionist oppression you would feel appalled by uplifting Zionists and censoring anti-Zionist sentiment including less than polite antifascists.
There are two options, first one is move Feddit out of Germany. I realize that might not be feasible but it is technically possible and would remove the problem of complying with the laws of a state that has literal compelled speech requirements that favor Zionism and Zionists. The second option is more personal, if you yourself actually despise supporting Zionism (I’m pretty sure this If is hypothetical from what I’ve seen) and you really didn’t agree with or support it. You can resign from Feddit and no longer be complacent in the censoring of anti-Zionists or anti-fascists. But I say this is hypothetical because from what you’ve said in your other comments, I don’t really believe you are against Zionism where it counts. Murder and direct violence sure, but the more subtle and more systemic problems of Zionism, not so much. You wouldn’t be using strawman arguments to try and justify yourself if you were actually in favor of anti-Zionist sentiment.
Even if you didn’t do either of those things, continued to work for Feddit and ban anti-Zionists and antifascists but didn’t try to justify it or use some strawman argument to say “No no, they were actually bad people, trust be bro” I would still respect you more than I do now. Because it is not respectable to apologize for uplifting Zionism, silencing criticism of it, and then saying that you stand by doing that. What you have been doing reeks of Liberal Zionist apologia. And it is fucking gross as hell.
Firstly, I am not the owner. I am a voluntary admin and I have had it with your strawmen and badjacketing. I don’t get why I constantly have to be on the defense just because you can’t get into your thick skull that I am not a Zionist and things arent as extremely black and white as you make them out to be. I don’t give a crap if you are anti-Zionist or Zionist. You misbehave on Feddit and can’t voice your opinion without bigotry, you face the consequences! You can’t not be toxic? Then shut the hell up! Calling toxic behavior “less than polite antifascist” is just bad antifascism. I have responsibilities as an admin and I try my best that I am fair to everybody and not just a specific interest group.
Sure, Feddit has a bunch of Zionists on it, because a lot of Germans are that way. Feddit.org is however a server originally intended for German speakers (and beyond) and not for specific political groups. We have rules and they count for everybody. You violate them, you bear the consequences.
That said, calling for the destruction of any country including Palestine, can be legally understood as a call for also the destruction of the country’s citizens. That’s why it is an issue.
The thing is that its easy to talk about being brave. Its another to actually.
Its easy to imagn being Rosa Parks. Its good to want to be like her. Its very hard to actually be and all the thankless negatives that come with it.
I agree, it is very hard to actually be the one to make change in the world and it is a very scary and hard thing to be like Rosa parks. Especially since the rest of society will try to Gaslight you and say you are evil for doing this stuff. I wouldn’t blame someone for staying quiet and trying to avoid problems.
That said I would and will blame people for doing the opposite and trying to be Sam Ervin, if we’re going to use the Rosa parks analogy, as he used his power to promote and justify the evil out of a desire to conform and keep things the same. This is not excusable, because it causes the same amount of harm as promoting the harmful ideas with the intent to cause harm. It is my opinion that instead of being quiet or trying to avoid problems, OP is taking the Sam Ervin route so to speak.
Move the German instance out of Germany?
Wouldn’t it make more sense to limit antisemitism while still allowing antizionism?
Germany’s laws do often conflate the two (here’s an example), so that’s more tricky than it might seem.
So in light of that it may be wise to have the German instance not actually be in Germany.
Though as I said, that may not be feasible and hypothetically isn’t the only option. I don’t think either option is likely to be taken by the OP, I don’t even think bare minimum attempt not to support Zionism will be taken by them. Their behavior doesn’t show it. I feel like they would probably agree with what happened in the article I listed.
Your link actually highlights the issue why we need to be careful due to legal stuff.
Again, I am not the owner. And even if we moved the server, the law still applies to me and 95% of the users of Feddit.
Removed by mod
Gonna have to delete this comment since you haven’t edited it
Hey, probably not a good idea to be using triple quotes around certain words. It dips into the triple parentheses. Please edit.
This sounds like quite a reach, I looked in that article and found nothing on quote marks. I also googled it and found only mentions of parentheses. I also found this thread. So from what I see, it’s not grammatically correct, no. It’s a bit demeaning, but it is a huge reach to compare it to triple parentheses.
Germany is not some dictatorship that bends rules. Hate speech legislation is in part determined by seasoned jurists specialized in hate speech cases and there are clear outlines. You are just mad because it doesn’t make exceptions.
To your question: If people glorify the war crimes of the IDF, are racist against Palestinians or are islamophobic of course they face consequences. But we don’t ban people just on the basis of being for or against Israel. It depends on the specifics.
I am mad because this type of legislation is inherently authoritarian and borderline fascist, it actually does benefit the modern Nazi party of Germany to stifle criticism and prevent historical comparisons. I’m not a neoliberal german nationalist like yourself so I’m not ever going to see that as okay, and the fact that you try to make anyone who disagrees with you out to be “just a bigot” continues to show what a sad pathetic neoliberal you are. I’m not scared or intimated by you. Maybe you’re used to people groveling before you because of your admin status and you think continuing to argue with me will intimidate me into apologizing or yeilding, but you have no points, no intelligent discussion of any kind. All you’ve offered is the same neoliberal Zionist apologia, and dismissal of anyone against you or feddit as ““bigots””.
Purely for curiosity’s sake, I don’t think Israel’s populace should be destroyed. Does that make me zionist?
Careful, that question is usually not asked in good faith.
On its own advocating against genocide doesn’t make one a Zionist. That question you phrased is usually made in bad faith to imply that Anti-Zionists fighting against occupation of Palestine are advocating the killing of the Jewish people already there. If one asks the question or states this with the intent of implying that Anti-Zionists are advocating violence towards jewish people, it is likely they are a Zionist, not for believing that people shouldn’t be killed but by making an implication in bad faith. An implication which is by nature a Zionist strawman.
The unfortunate is that there is a lot of blame directed towards the Jewish population for what is happening in Gaza. Being Jewish doesn’t magically mean that you have control of the Israeli government. The term “anti-zionist” is often used as a cover for people who hate the Jewish people rather than the leaders of the Israeli government.
This sounds like Zionist apologia to the max, and a Zionist strawman too. In fact the majority of anti-Zionists are against conflating the jewish people with Israel and their government. In fact a lot are fucking Jewish themselves. Antisemitism is a real problem and needs to be stood up against, but accusations of antisemitism are being made falsely these days and are being weaponized against criticism of Israel, and against the people criticizing Israel.
And right now, you are doing more of the latter than the former by blanket stating that we shouldn’t use “anti-Zionist” or even advocate against Zionism. You know, instead of to call out the anti-Semitic dipshits themselves claiming to be anti-Zionist. You are using a rhetorical tactic to try and claim it is antisemtic to be anti-Zionist and that is Zionist apologia.
And actually I would go as far as to say this rhetoric is directly harmful towards Jewish people, because using terms like “antisemitism” and antisemite" incorrectly, as ways to shut people down or suppress political views, or even unjustly attack people’s character makes these terms less meaningful, and ultimately undermines their effectiveness when they are more than justified. If “Antisemite” becomes the thing we call Greta Thunberg and people like her, who are not attacking Jewish people, who are standing up against the atrocities a government has committed (as well as the vile politics of a different government suppressing criticism of it) that ultimately bleaches the word of its meaning, a meaning which is very important and still valid today.
Sounds very complicated. It’s not some chess move, just asking if it makes me a zionist.
I think you can understand and appreciate why it’s important to be very clear on this removing all but the smallest trace of ambiguity. Because in these situations, bad faith actors use ambiguity to their advantage for the purpose of implying things or claiming someone else meant something because an answer was simple and vague.
So in short, loaded questions need loaded answers, and people who answer them with simple answers are either ignorant on how their answers will be misused or misinterpreted in bad faith, or they are themselves answering in bad faith.
That is the status quo. What also counts is how stuff as worded. Statements need to be clear that they don’t imply the harm or persecution of innocents.
It’s very peculiar how the group that prides itself on identifying dogwhistles and cryptofascism is seemingly ignorant of antisemitic dogwhistles, despite just ten years ago being overtly aware of these antisemitic dogwhistles.
It’s campism to the extreme
Should runs into the problem of what happens if you don’t.
If you can get away with disobeying senseless laws, you should. But when you’re a very easy target, like an established web server hosted in the country in question, you do have to play some risk-reward calculations in your head to decide if this is the hill you want to die on.
A particularly iconoclastic anarchist might legitimately argue that underage individuals should not be subjected to additional privacy laws when online, as a form of ageism, but they might want to sit down and take a long and hard look at whether that’s really what they want their website to have a showdown with the state on, simply within the context of their own ideology.
Don’t throw good resources away on losing battles. Be strategic.
Just want to clarify that the last thread the OP posted before being banned was them arguing with a lemmy.ml user that they aren’t perpetrating censorship of anti-zionist content, while describing how they censor anti-zionist expression on Feddit.
Why ban?
I also got recently permabanned (reason: Golden Rule #8) from Ye Power Trippin Bastards after I posted Dessalines banning me on .ml despite not having posted anything there in three weeks.
You got banned from YPTB?
Yep. Like an hour ago.
You got banned from lemmy.dbzer0.com entirely. I mean I could’ve seen it coming from 100 miles away. They did make this proposal in the governance community little more than a month ago and it passed with massive support.
Interesting.
That figures. YPTB, for whatever reason, always defends lemmy.ml and tankies and will ban anyone who doesn’t think Israel should be destroyed.
Dbz0 is a very antisemitic instance. They don’t allow any comments or accounts whatsoever defending Israel, even if it’s the innocent civilian populace.
Holding all Israelis accountable for Zionism is not Anti-Zionism: it’s collective guilt, which is antisemitic and racist.
A good rule of thumb to determine racism is if you assign blame based on something someone cannot choose, such as their ethnicity, religion or ancestry, then it’s racist. An Israeli civilian, born in Israel, does not volunteer to be zionist and shouldn’t be held accountable for it.
I’ve found this is a good way to determine if someone is antisemitic or not: Many Israelis and Jews support Zionism, that is, the existence of Israel as a Jewish State. Should being Israeli or Jewish automatically make someone responsible or subject to different treatment because of Zionism or Israel’s actions?
Oh I have understood by now that they don’t care about Israeli civilians. I have been arguing with this guy who keeps badjacketing me and any defense of anything that has to do with Israel even if it is just the uninvolved populace (it is unfair to claim every Israeli supports the ruling party, see protests against Bibi) somehow makes me a liberal Zionist. I am more of a non-Zionist. Any remedial solution that enables Palestinians and Israelis to peacefully coexist is fine with me and yes the settlements in the Westbank that break international law need to be dismantled.
Addendum: I don’t think Israel should be a Jewish ethnostate. It should be a safe haven for anyone.
Yeah, I agree, there should be no such thing as any sort of ethnostate. Or even a religious state for that matter.
I’m speculating here but I would assume that either the lemmy.ml admins came across the thread and saw their zionist apologia, or the lemmy.ml user snitched on them to ml’s admins (either by report or by DM/off-platform). I make no assertions as to which of these are more likely as this is only speculation.
I speculate that their comments apologizing for censorship of anti-zionist sentiment while arguing with a lemmy.ml user was the cause of their ban. It could be something different of course, but it was so close it’s very likely. Also they have very little other participation on lemmy.ml (only enough to trigger a community ban from c/memes so it was likely something recent.
Antizionist opinions are allowed on Feddit. However mathemachristian was being toxic, writing inflammatory comments and acting sort of like antiyanks.
If you can’t state your opinion without being a bigot, then you shouldn’t mention it at all on Feddit.
Your and Feddit’s usage of the word bigot typically means anyone opposing all aspects of Zionism beyond murder and direct violence, and also includes antifascists who are more aggressive with their message, which is why people say Feddit upholds Zionism. In addition to the fact that polite liberal Zionists are able to exist on Feddit without getting moderated in any way. Suffice to say, Feddit stomps out criticism of Zionism where it counts, and allows Zionists who are ““civil””. That makes it a Zionist friendly space.
No it doesn’t. Just because we don’t give you exceptions in rules and don’t allow extremist calls to violence and revanchism, doesn’t mean antizionists are being treated any different than revanchist Zionists.
And yes, both Zionists and Antizionists are allowed to be on Feddit as long as they don’t incite hatred and violence.
I don’t know who you think you’re trying to fool but Feddit’s mod actions and history speak for itself and no amount of your Strawmanning changes this. People see through your lies. Only the Zionists of Feddit or the most sycophantic neoliberals are listening to you.
I am not lying though. My adminning history is consistent. If other admins have unjustly banned someone, it can be discussed. But if you go around trying to justify revanchism on Feddit, you won’t be popular.
I speak about all of feddit’s moderation history because every one of Feddit’s mods hide behind policy or german law, and they probably are just as neoliberal as you are. You also handled it particularly poorly by not only apologizing for the censorship but dismissing anyone who you did ban or silence as just “bigots”.
Being popular in Zionist safe spaces is a bad thing, just like being popular with alt-right fascists is a bad thing. Maybe one day you will realize that being not respectable means you don’t have a say in the social order, nor the ability to create social stigma in people. Because they do not respect you or the platform you stand for, and honestly they shouldn’t.
Anyway I’m done here. There’s nothing new being said at this point.
It isn’t a Zionist safe space though. That would imply that we wouldn’t allow non-Zionists and anti-Zionists on the site, which is false.
And it is not my fault people get banned for inciting hatred, it’s theirs.
“being not respectable” Why do I need the respect of people who sow hatred and revanchism?