I’m not a big fan of moderation being at the whims of whoever has an agenda.
Are there lemmy instances that take moderation seriously and don’t just ban/censor people they disagree with? So far it looks like the mods in lemmy.world instances are very flippant with their moderation and I’m curious if anyone has filled the void yet for a better instance.
Edit: Thanks for everyone who tried to give a legitimate response. No thanks to those who just wanted to spout their talking points or debate the merits of freedom of speech; that was never the point of this thread.
Without exception, whenever someone is looking for “free speech”, this applies:
100% what’s happening here.
“I want to be an arse with impunity!”
Maybe uncharitably, my first thought when reading a post like this is “what shitty thing do you want to say?”.
But I don’t know you so maybe I am being uncharitable.
But you have to realise the fediverse in general is not owned by capitalist orgs with high priced legal teams. Its mostly small teams of private individuals. If someone posts something illegal, including defamatory, in their legal jurisdiction (which is probably not the USA) then they might be on the hook for it too.
Even if you run your own instance if you’re enough of a dick it’ll get defederated or you’ll be banned from multiple instances/communities.
Learn to play nice in other peoples yard. Its hard sometimes but just walking away and blocking is the best option. Sometimes I need to make more effort to do that too.
Defederation isn’t an on/off switch.
If enough freedom of speech instances get defederated from the censorship instances, it will just create 2 different sections of the fediverse.
Right now, it doesn’t look like there’s any section of the fediverse that supports freedom of speech.
What exactly do you mean by “Freedom of Speech”? What are you trying to say that would be censored? Is what you want to say actually covered by freedom of speech?
As you used speech and not expression I am guessing you are USian? This is what freedom of speech relates to:
"The Supreme Court of the United States has recognized several categories of speech that are given lesser or no protection by the First Amendment and has recognized that governments may enact reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions on speech. The First Amendment’s constitutional right of free speech, which is applicable to state and local governments under the incorporation doctrine,[6] prevents only government restrictions on speech, not restrictions imposed by private individuals or businesses unless they are acting on behalf of the government.[7] "
I view moderation as ‘the rules of the house’. When you go to another person’s house, you are expected to abide by their (hopefully sane and sensible) rules. If you don’t, you are asked to leave. Sometimes, you are forcibly removed if things escalate. If you don’t like the rules of the house, or you can’t find common ground with the people there, don’t go there.
Yes, that’s the purpose of this thread.
I’m trying to find instances that support freedom of speech.
So, you’re looking for a more ‘consequence-free’ instance? Is that an accurate statement?
There exist instances that have more of a free-speech “focus”, but despite that most instances cannot tolerate intolerance, harassment, trolling, illegal or borderline illegal stuff. There is generally more tolerance for disagreement on Lemmy than other forums, where unpopular takes are heavily downvoted instead of removed.
A common sequence of events that happens with trolls or flamebaiters:
- Troll says something unpopular, but not rule breaking (comment downvoted but not removed by mods)
- Several other people respond/rebut
- Troll continues a long back-and-forth argument that gets nowhere, or resorts to ad hominems, slurs or personal attacks (rule-breaking)
- comments get reported
- Mods remove the entire thread including the initial comment, and give out a community ban
- Troll decries censorship of the initial not rule-breaking comment, when it was the follow up that was the problem.
So yeah, it’s to keep out the jerks. Behave well, think of others as you speak, then you will find yourself able to say more than in places with professed free-speech absolutism. If you don’t like that, start your own instance so that no one can moderate you in your own space, and watch the jerks, trolls and spammers roll in after a while.
that’s an unpopular opinion.
should we report you for trolling?
I’m not an admin, so I can’t stop you from doing that. I’m not sure why you’re asking for my permission.
I’m pointing out your hypocrisy.
you’re saying it’s ok that some unpopular opinions are silenced because the greater good demands it, but who dictates the greater good? is it you? is it me? no, it’s the mods.
at which point do the communities that you or I build stop becoming our communities and become the mods curated community?
IMO we don’t need mods because social moderation is a real mechanic that should be employed on a platform.
Thanks for not helping at all.
So yeah, it’s to keep out the jerks.
Thanks for not helping at all.
Narrator: yet one still made its way in.
Edit: all of my comments in this thread went from +3 to -1 while all of op’s heavily downvoted everything is now less so, all in the last few minutes. Army of alts to the rescue!
Freedom of speech means you can say what you want. It doesn’t mean others have to listen or like it.
If you don’t like moderation, it’s probably best to run your own instance.
Starting my own instance should be the last resort, not the first one.
If there’s someone else who has similar ideas on how to host one, I’d rather join and support them than splinter off even further.
Well, then you have to get more specific what kind of opinions are getting censored. I can’t find a single modlog entry related to your account.
“Should be”? Where do you think you are, Walmart? This is free and nobody is making money off your use of it. If you don’t like the way other people run their servers, make your own with blackjack and hookers. Complaining makes you seem entitled, like you crashed a party and started bitching about the canapes, because there’s nothing stopping you from having your own party.
Sorry, perhaps you misunderstand.
I do not want to go through the trouble and effort of creating my own instance if someone else has already done so. I’d rather join them and give them my support instead of creating further fragmentation and making it harder for people who want freedom of speech to communicate as a result.
If you have any experience in software development, you’d realize it makes sense more often than not to use other people’s solutions if they exist before building your own. The same principle applies here.
Reinventing the wheel leads to a profound understanding of why wheels are round.
If you have any experience in software development, you’d realize it makes sense more often than not to use other people’s solutions if they exist before building your own.
First of all, I’d advise avoiding talking down to people unless you’re damn sure you know what you’re talking about. But, since you’re comfortable patronising people you know nothing about because they call you on your bullshit, then I’ll stoop to your level to get the message across:
If you knew anything at all about engineering, software or otherwise, you’d know the best solution is the one that does exactly what you want for the lowest cost. By your own admission in your post, existing Lemmy instances do not do what you want because you are not in control of the moderation. That is the actual problem because the only solution to your complaint - that you don’t like the way the instances are moderated - is to moderate your own instance.
The fediverse is built such that anyone can take the solution someone else built, e.g. the Lemmy or Mastodon source code, and host it themselves, without having to build their own version. This is a feature, and you’re just too lazy to use it.
A completely unmoderated instance would be defederated because it would end up filled with stuff that would get you raided by police.
Can you give an example of a rule that you feel is excessively strict and maybe we can come up with an instance where the enforcement is less strict.
A completely unmoderated instance […]
OP doesn’t ask for “unmoderated” instance though, they are explicitly asking for an instance that “takes moderation seriously”. Moderation is absolutely not the same thing as censorship.
I haven’t noticed any moderation issues on lemmy.dbzer0.com
Mind if I ask what exactly you feel like is being censored?
No, I doubt any instance is gonna allow to say things like the n-word or “I don’t think people that are [Race/Ethnicity] should be allowed to exist”.
Any instance that allows you to say that should be defederated.
Can you claify what you mean by “free speech”? Give a few example comments?
There will always be moderation. If you dont ban certain things, people will have to defederate your server or risk being raided by the police. That being said, there are some more lenient servers, but few servers are completely hands off. Your server is not what decides whether your post gets deleted or not however. That is always decided by the mod of the community you post/comment in.
My instance supports free speech for me :D
Not that I care (as I (IMO) have no really extreme opinions worth censoring) but I think mine is also very hands off as long as it is not illegal like CP.
Your freedom stops where other peoples freedom start.
All instances, except tankie ones, have freedom of speech.
Definition varies for example between Europe and US. In Europe you have freedom FROM, in the US it’s more like freedom TO.
Freedom TO can be dangerous as some peoples think that it means they are allowed to say hateful and harmful things. Hurting others is not freedom of speech, it’s just being the shit stain on humanity toilet paper roll and you won’t have that on lemmy. Unless by creating your own no-rules instance that will get defederated by everyone.
But as long as you are not insulting and harming people, yeah you have freedom of speech everywhere, just the normal sane amount of freedom.
yeah, all that is bullshit.
I’ve experienced mostly ok mods on world, but there are several that were clearly editing for their agenda.
I got banned from news for “obvious troll is obvious”. I wasn’t trolling, I was dead fucking serious. yet, all the comments that were responding to me that were breaking actual rules were left alone.
it’s clear to me, because I’ve experienced it, that lemmy.world is biased towards setting a narrative because it has no way to report bad mods.
eventually it’s going to be a curated cesspool just like Reddit became.
Maybe, I tend to avoid big instances and news. I also heard stuff about news.world mod so I’m not surprised about what you said.
But I believe it is one dude on one community on one instance, there are still plenty of news community outside of world, ml and (former) grad so they are easy to avoid.
And it doesn’t change the fact that free speech != spewing hate so if some are looking for that kind of freedom, well, they can look elsewhere.
Thanks for not helping at all.
You’re welcome, I’ll always be there to not help.
Yes.
Rn haven’t really felt censored by my instance that much. I believe I do hold different opinions to the admins, but that appears to be okay
I agree with you, it’s sad to see how people are so happy to censor opinions they disagree with when they’re in power, while ignoring that if their opinions get censored when they’re not in power they (rightfully) get miffed. Free speech should apply to everyone so people can decide for themselves what they believe and they can challenge authority.
Freedom of speech means you won’t be arrested and sent to El Salvador if you say you support Palestine.
Wait, wrong example.
What kind of opinion are we talking about? Can you give an example?
An example of an opinion that would get censored on some Lemmy instances:
China’s authoritarian government is unethical and worse than America, even under Trump
An example of an opinion that would get censored on some mainstream platforms:
Luigi was right, we should kill billionaires
Both should be allowed
Do you notice something? Your comment is still there. Nobody has removed it. Nobody has left a rude comment. So far, nobody has even downvoted it (as far as I can see from my instance).
Most of the time it’s not about the opinion but about how it’s presented. As long as you’re respectful and accept that someone else might disagree with you, almost no lemmy instance will „censor“ you for something like that.
We’re on Lemmy.world, if this was presented as an actual opinion (rather than an example of an opinion) on .ml I guarantee you it would be removed under ‘rule 1’
What power? This is federation. If you get censored on one board, find a version of that board that is happy to have that particular conversation.
I’m fine with semi-arbitrary censorship to keep a community a nice place to visit for everyone. If my opinion gets censored on something, it’s a sign I’m among the wrong people to have that discussion.
I understand the bubble argument, but I don’t come to Lemmy to be “educated” by random assholes that just like to argue. I have lots of sources of alternate views, I’m not being helped by hearing RandomAssholeX’s hot takes.
Please whistle if you find something like that and not completely dead empty. I prefer to ban people I don’t like by myself according to my own ideas of what is right and what is wrong.
I mean, it’s your instance so that’s your call, right? All it means is your community will be smaller because fewer people will make it through the filter of your values, but if your goal isn’t endlessly adding users then who cares if the community you build stays small? The beauty of the Fediverse.
