Okay, but, like… No? How delusional do you have to be to think something you never have to touch in Windows, macOS, iOS, or Android (and probably less and less going forward in desktop Linux, an already extremely niche OS) is more important than learning how to use a word processor, make presentations, or work with spreadsheets? (Microsoft Office specifically is used because it’s the industry standard as part of a vicious cycle, but not the school’s fault or problem). Do you, like, exist in the real world outside a very specific industry/set of interests?
I know you already pointed out your sample is heavily biased, but to reiterate: macOS users you know predominantly from computer science and adjacent engineering fields are a very skewed sample. You can say that sprinkling terminal usage into a middle school computer literacy class is worthwhile, and I might even agree. But to treat it as anything more than something used by enthusiasts, programmers, IT professionals, scientists (on a very basic level that can be learned in 10 minutes), teenagers trying to look badass, and the one-in-a-million frustrated “normie” user who falls into it through some troubleshooting/game modding/etc. tutorial simply isn’t realistic.
Regarding ping: what good is it going to do a normal user who doesn’t understand basic networking? It can rarely tell me basic useful information, like that my DNS is fucked up (can’t get to websites but can ping). For normal users it’ll just tell them the Internet isn’t working, which they probably already figured out, but how do they resolve it? Pictured: a normal user who can use ping figuring out their Internet isn’t working. To make something like ping meaningfully useful, you need to teach them basic Layer 3 concepts too, which is fine, but that’s not a terminal skill – that’s networking skills with a trivial terminal command stapled on.
Anyone can learn to use an office suite on their own in very little time so there’s no reason to teach it. Being able to use the command line is a valuable skill that makes you a way better computer user no matter what you’re doing and it’s one that a lot of people are missing these days. I don’t think you can really say you know how to use a computer if you can only use it in the very specific ways someone happens to have made a gui for
Hot take: using a word processor or spreadsheet program are different from balancing a budget, the latter is something I very much wish they had a larger focus on in school during my time, rather than showing us word art and how to add page numbers.
Anyone can learn to use an office suite on their own in very little time
Okay, should I say the same about a terminal then? I took a single-semester Linux course and had the terminal down pat. Meanwhile, I grew up learning how to use an office suite day in and day out in K–12 and still find new ways to improve my workflow in one.
so there’s no reason to teach it
Besides the fact that it’s a cornerstore of modern society that any white-collar professional will routinely have to work with, sure. (If you want to pull the “we shouldn’t be turning our kids into workers” card for why teaching them basic job skills is bad, things like word processing and spreadsheets are/can be very useful outside of industry too.)
Being able to use the command line is a valuable skill that makes you a way better computer user no matter what you’re doing
Okay, like… kind of? It gives you a better mindset, but in terms of a specific application, unless you’re in a niche part of industry or have niche interests, you will never in your life need to touch the terminal at this point. You will be just fine. Even as a power user, there are few problems normal users would face where I look at the terminal and see a shortcut to something that would be tedious in the GUI – and fuck knows most people use their desktop OS less than I do if they even have one anymore.
and it’s one that a lot of people are missing these days.
Because as noted, no major OS except desktop Linux makes you interact with the terminal in any meaningful way – and even desktop Linux is changing that because designers understand that, while the terminal is a godsend for power users, everyday users have no compelling reason to deal with it.
I don’t think you can really say you know how to use a computer if you can only use it in the very specific ways someone happens to have made a gui for
This is elitist bullshit that isn’t reflected in the real world. It’s not 1992 anymore. If people can efficiently complete the workflows they need via a GUI and never touch the terminal, then good for them; they know how to use a computer. This comment is so profoundly out-of-touch with how most actual humans live their lives that I feel like I’ve tripped and fallen into another reality.
Linux doesn’t “make you interact with the terminal.” Many linux users interact with the terminal because it’s a better tool for many purposes-- not just niche ones as you suggest. Your argument leans heavily on popularity: what most people are doing, but that’s kind of the point of the original comment. People are taught on software and OSs owned and pushed by private companies. It creates such a dependency that it’s hard for people to imagine how one can succeed without them. Knowing the terminal can help one understand GUIs better, and makes it easier to imagine building new ones or modifying existing ones. It also allows a person to recognise when a GUI is unnecessary and a task can be completed faster by keeping your hands on the keyboard and working in the terminal.
I took a single-semester Linux course and had the terminal down pat.
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by this? It sounds a little like you’re implying mastery of the rather vague “terminal.” Do you mean everything in the terminal? Or just a common shell, like bash? Or some common cli tools?
I ask because it seems like you’re suggesting that you can master the unix terminal in just a semester while you learn new important things that affect your workflow in your office suite regularly. I agree with you in regard to the office suite, but vis-a-vis the terminal… I have spent my entire life working in it, and, while I’m very comfortable, I still learn new things that affect my workflow every week at minimum.
But I fear that I’m misunderstanding you here, which is why I ask.
I mean use of the CLI on Linux generally. I used “terminal” vaguely because the original comment used it vaguely. “Down pat” is to say that I’m perfectly comfortable with it, namely that the course taught me:
How to execute programs from the shell (and interrupt execution/kill processes).
How to navigate and alter the filesystem, search for files and their contents, etc.
How to install, remove, and configure software.
How to set aliases.
How to write shell scripts.
How to edit files (although 99% of the time this is useless; I’ll just use something like Kate instead).
How to parse and interpret program output.
How to read man pages.
Generally how to do anything I couldn’t/wouldn’t prefer to do from a GUI instead.
I use the shell vastly more than 99.99% of people and haven’t had a problem with or changed how I interact with it since that course; that to me is “down pat” for the terminal itself. I don’t care if I don’t know every application and flag ever made, because that’s not the point – like knowing how to use a GUI doesn’t mean you’ve memorized all GUI software, just that you know how to interpret the design language of and successfully use new GUI software. If I need to do something my current tools can’t, I can just search for the right program and use the man page to quickly write a command.
Meanwhile, with something like LibreOffice Calc, which I understand is much less feature-rich than the industry standard Excel, I don’t just learn about new functions like CORREL(), akin to what I said before about learning new CLI applications; I fundamentally learn how to create and edit spreadsheets more quickly. In Impress, I still learn how to make presentations more appealing, more readable, etc. Basically things that aren’t just rote memorization of gadgets that I could look up at any time. That’s what sets it apart to me – the fact that anything I don’t already know about the Linux terminal is present in readily available reference material and better off not memorized.
This is elitist bullshit that isn’t reflected in the real world.
It truly is. They are literally just doing the infinite abstraction argument where they pretend only the level of abstraction they’re at is valid, when I could easily say that they don’t really know how to use a computer if they can’t compile their own C Code or program directly in assembly.
I took a single-semester Linux course and had the terminal down pat.
And this is where I stop reading.
EDIT: Seriously guys, this statement reminds me of when the little girl in the original Jurassic Park is like “this is unix, I know this” and then starts flying around the park virtually using “Unix” 3D style.
This is such elitist nonsense. What specialty tricks do you think an every day user would possibly need to know that they couldn’t learn in a single semester.
Well yeah, because I did. What else is there? I knew how to do everything I would ever need to do in the Linux command line. Anything I need to do beyond fundamental interactions, what else do I need to know besides how to 1) find a relevant CLI application and 2) read the man page to write a command? I even knew how to write basic shell scripts, which I would argue goes beyond “using the command line” and strays into “using a scripting language”. After that course, I never struggled with the Linux CLI because it taught me how to reason about it; is there a problem with that statement?
Is the timeframe and the setting the problem? Because I’m talking about going from never having used Linux or a CLI to being fluent with both, and the class was still a blowoff.
Okay, but, like… No? How delusional do you have to be to think something you never have to touch in Windows, macOS, iOS, or Android (and probably less and less going forward in desktop Linux, an already extremely niche OS) is more important than learning how to use a word processor, make presentations, or work with spreadsheets? (Microsoft Office specifically is used because it’s the industry standard as part of a vicious cycle, but not the school’s fault or problem). Do you, like, exist in the real world outside a very specific industry/set of interests?
As a computer science student, I haven’t met anyone that didn’t use terminal on Mac. I am heavily biased.
Also, I think ping is actually very useful for a normal user. Not nearly as useful as (any) office software, but still.
I know you already pointed out your sample is heavily biased, but to reiterate: macOS users you know predominantly from computer science and adjacent engineering fields are a very skewed sample. You can say that sprinkling terminal usage into a middle school computer literacy class is worthwhile, and I might even agree. But to treat it as anything more than something used by enthusiasts, programmers, IT professionals, scientists (on a very basic level that can be learned in 10 minutes), teenagers trying to look badass, and the one-in-a-million frustrated “normie” user who falls into it through some troubleshooting/game modding/etc. tutorial simply isn’t realistic.
Regarding
ping: what good is it going to do a normal user who doesn’t understand basic networking? It can rarely tell me basic useful information, like that my DNS is fucked up (can’t get to websites but can ping). For normal users it’ll just tell them the Internet isn’t working, which they probably already figured out, but how do they resolve it? Pictured: a normal user who can usepingfiguring out their Internet isn’t working. To make something likepingmeaningfully useful, you need to teach them basic Layer 3 concepts too, which is fine, but that’s not a terminal skill – that’s networking skills with a trivial terminal command stapled on.Scammers use the terminal to trick people into thinking they’ve been hacked, so that’s one reason to at least know it’s not magic.
You don’t think scammers don’t also use other tools?
This is a ridiculous reason to replace more useful general skills with less useful specific skills (for the majority).
Anyone can learn to use an office suite on their own in very little time so there’s no reason to teach it. Being able to use the command line is a valuable skill that makes you a way better computer user no matter what you’re doing and it’s one that a lot of people are missing these days. I don’t think you can really say you know how to use a computer if you can only use it in the very specific ways someone happens to have made a gui for
My sweet summer child, if only that were the case…
If I were a god I’d strike anyone manually changing the title font and size instead of using a style with lightning.
I’d wait until they pressed enter twice and started typing so I knew that they weren’t going to update or create a style.
That is one hell of a take. Do you say the same thing about building a budget?
Hot take: using a word processor or spreadsheet program are different from balancing a budget, the latter is something I very much wish they had a larger focus on in school during my time, rather than showing us word art and how to add page numbers.
But come on, everyone has to do mail merge on a daily basis! /s
Okay, should I say the same about a terminal then? I took a single-semester Linux course and had the terminal down pat. Meanwhile, I grew up learning how to use an office suite day in and day out in K–12 and still find new ways to improve my workflow in one.
Besides the fact that it’s a cornerstore of modern society that any white-collar professional will routinely have to work with, sure. (If you want to pull the “we shouldn’t be turning our kids into workers” card for why teaching them basic job skills is bad, things like word processing and spreadsheets are/can be very useful outside of industry too.)
Okay, like… kind of? It gives you a better mindset, but in terms of a specific application, unless you’re in a niche part of industry or have niche interests, you will never in your life need to touch the terminal at this point. You will be just fine. Even as a power user, there are few problems normal users would face where I look at the terminal and see a shortcut to something that would be tedious in the GUI – and fuck knows most people use their desktop OS less than I do if they even have one anymore.
Because as noted, no major OS except desktop Linux makes you interact with the terminal in any meaningful way – and even desktop Linux is changing that because designers understand that, while the terminal is a godsend for power users, everyday users have no compelling reason to deal with it.
This is elitist bullshit that isn’t reflected in the real world. It’s not 1992 anymore. If people can efficiently complete the workflows they need via a GUI and never touch the terminal, then good for them; they know how to use a computer. This comment is so profoundly out-of-touch with how most actual humans live their lives that I feel like I’ve tripped and fallen into another reality.
Linux doesn’t “make you interact with the terminal.” Many linux users interact with the terminal because it’s a better tool for many purposes-- not just niche ones as you suggest. Your argument leans heavily on popularity: what most people are doing, but that’s kind of the point of the original comment. People are taught on software and OSs owned and pushed by private companies. It creates such a dependency that it’s hard for people to imagine how one can succeed without them. Knowing the terminal can help one understand GUIs better, and makes it easier to imagine building new ones or modifying existing ones. It also allows a person to recognise when a GUI is unnecessary and a task can be completed faster by keeping your hands on the keyboard and working in the terminal.
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by this? It sounds a little like you’re implying mastery of the rather vague “terminal.” Do you mean everything in the terminal? Or just a common shell, like bash? Or some common cli tools?
I ask because it seems like you’re suggesting that you can master the unix terminal in just a semester while you learn new important things that affect your workflow in your office suite regularly. I agree with you in regard to the office suite, but vis-a-vis the terminal… I have spent my entire life working in it, and, while I’m very comfortable, I still learn new things that affect my workflow every week at minimum.
But I fear that I’m misunderstanding you here, which is why I ask.
I mean use of the CLI on Linux generally. I used “terminal” vaguely because the original comment used it vaguely. “Down pat” is to say that I’m perfectly comfortable with it, namely that the course taught me:
I use the shell vastly more than 99.99% of people and haven’t had a problem with or changed how I interact with it since that course; that to me is “down pat” for the terminal itself. I don’t care if I don’t know every application and flag ever made, because that’s not the point – like knowing how to use a GUI doesn’t mean you’ve memorized all GUI software, just that you know how to interpret the design language of and successfully use new GUI software. If I need to do something my current tools can’t, I can just search for the right program and use the man page to quickly write a command.
Meanwhile, with something like LibreOffice Calc, which I understand is much less feature-rich than the industry standard Excel, I don’t just learn about new functions like
CORREL(), akin to what I said before about learning new CLI applications; I fundamentally learn how to create and edit spreadsheets more quickly. In Impress, I still learn how to make presentations more appealing, more readable, etc. Basically things that aren’t just rote memorization of gadgets that I could look up at any time. That’s what sets it apart to me – the fact that anything I don’t already know about the Linux terminal is present in readily available reference material and better off not memorized.It truly is. They are literally just doing the infinite abstraction argument where they pretend only the level of abstraction they’re at is valid, when I could easily say that they don’t really know how to use a computer if they can’t compile their own C Code or program directly in assembly.
And this is where I stop reading.
EDIT: Seriously guys, this statement reminds me of when the little girl in the original Jurassic Park is like “this is unix, I know this” and then starts flying around the park virtually using “Unix” 3D style.
This is such elitist nonsense. What specialty tricks do you think an every day user would possibly need to know that they couldn’t learn in a single semester.
Dude, bash is a whole language.
I’ve been using shells for over twenty years and I still pick up new tricks.
Well yeah, because I did. What else is there? I knew how to do everything I would ever need to do in the Linux command line. Anything I need to do beyond fundamental interactions, what else do I need to know besides how to 1) find a relevant CLI application and 2) read the man page to write a command? I even knew how to write basic shell scripts, which I would argue goes beyond “using the command line” and strays into “using a scripting language”. After that course, I never struggled with the Linux CLI because it taught me how to reason about it; is there a problem with that statement?
Is the timeframe and the setting the problem? Because I’m talking about going from never having used Linux or a CLI to being fluent with both, and the class was still a blowoff.