As Torvalds pointed out in 2019, is that while some major hardware vendors do sell Linux PCs – Dell, for example, with Ubuntu – none of them make it easy. There are also great specialist Linux PC vendors, such as System76, Germany’s TUXEDO Computers, and the UK-based Star Labs, but they tend to market to people who are already into Linux, not disgruntled Windows users. No, one big reason why Linux hasn’t taken off is that there are no major PC OEMs strongly backing it. To Torvalds, Chromebooks “are the path toward the desktop.”
I’m a Windows User (Hello, there are dozens of us)
My laptop is Kubuntu (KDE+Ubuntu)
My college laptop was Linux Mint
My main PC is Win-10 LTSE.
Why: I need exceptional anti-cheat support because I play competitive online PvP shooter games religiously, and Virtual Desktop (VR Streaming Application) doesn’t run under Linux.
Should I think about not doing that and install Bazzite instead?
Well there’s the problem, huh?
I need exceptional anti-cheat support
Say what it really is: a root-kit to hand your entire system over to a corporation. That is a line I wouldn’t be willing to cross.
So yeah, the best scenario for you is a dedicated, nothing personal on it, non service connected windows machine for gaming. At least until the quit rooting your computer simply to play a game.
Linux needs nothing to succeed. It just needs to wait and be there while the big corporations continue to fuck up their systems all on their own.
The recent surge in Linux use from the Windows 10 deprecation and Windows 11 being annoying proves that.
More and more Vendors like Valve will pop up with a growing user base.
Like mentioned in the articles, another issue is that there are very few offerings of computers with Linux preinstalled in normal computer stores.
You know how a normal average persons buys new laptops? They go to such store and look at the prices and buy one according to how much they want to spend. The advanced buyers might consult their more tech-savvy acquaintances. Stuff like “Just install Linux”, is beyond concept comprehension for a lot of people, even if they heard about Linux at all.
All to say is that it’s not like they can’t understand these concepts if you explain them (people are clever), but they should care about them in the first place.
The fundamental issue is that the desktops themselves are inferior products. Linux desktop developers spent years arguing which bad solution is better for a solved problem.
The gap is closer now but that’s only because Windows is killing itself.
So, what is the solved problem supposed to be? The link doesn’t really tell me anything except that it about a customisable titlebar or something.
That’s a weird thing to present as an absolute truth. As someone who has exstensively used both Windows (3.1, 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10 and 11) and macOS (from 2011-2022), and now using KDE Plasma on my daily driver laptop, GNOME at work and Cinnamon for my living room machine: all three Linux DE are superior experiences.
Surely there are people who would prefer Windows and macOS over them, but it is highly subjective.
Huh? Linux has had the superior desktop experience for over a decade.
Windows just recently managed to get the basics like an actual clipboard, tabbed file management.
But, on the flip side, they’ve also had gnome for over a decade. Balance in all things.
What is an “actual clipboard”??
Selectable, historical, you know actually useful.
Windows 10 introduced a half ass attempt that finally worked with all programs and could be considered functional.
I have clipboard history enabled but holy is that an actual security nightmare.
IMO not a good requirement to have.
As always the security is with the user. No clipboard is just unusable.
And we are talking windows here, security was never important apparently until windows 10 anyways.
In fairness X11 was a threat right? That is one of the reasons Wayland broke so much.
As for the clipboard, kde applications can have a setting to say “this is a secret” and you can set to won’t clip. But passwords are so out of favor I am not sure it matters. If you had a keylogger running you are screwed, if you had an application harvesting the clip board I suppose that isn’t great, but how would it know what application/service/etc requested the contents?
No but seriously, what are you talking about?
Do you not know what a clipboard is? Did you not use linux for years and when you had to deal with the windows desktop it was easily in the top 10 of really annoying things a computer should be able to do?
In windows 10 they finally got a resemblance of clipboard. The bare minimum.
Meanwhile, Linux had a qr reader/writer, full object cut and paste, actions, white-space trimming, history length adjustment, persistence between sessions, blacklisting, clipboard editing, functions, search, sorting, should I keep going?
You can find multiple complaints over the years about how bad windows was at this.
Can you not just explain what you mean? You’re spending a ton of time not explaining it. Just explain what you mean. What feature was added in 10 that makes it a “real” clipboard?
Some of the Linux things you listed aren’t clipboard things (qr?). Others I don’t care about (persistent between seasons, sorting). Others that do exist in windows if applications implement it (objects). And a bunch of stuff I don’t know what you’re even talking about (functions?). White space trimming does sound nice but I know that isn’t in windows 10, so what exactly are you talking about?
You need me to spell out what I said? Windows did not have a clipboard. That is it. You could enable one separately for word/excel for awhile.
Otherwise the system got one slot. ONE to hold text. That was it. And there wasn’t even a way to look at the contents for a very long time.
I was explaining what I mean. What more could i say?
You are highlighting exactly what I am talking about: Linux has had a ton of features for the desktop for years (better right click context menus, better network protocol support, better nearly everything) but windows people didn’t so they don’t even know why using windows was basically living in the dark ages until Windows 10 started to get some worthwhile features. Windows 11 was the first to actually get a nearly functional file manager for example.
I mean you are thinking QR read/write is not a useful clipboard feature?
Adobe.
Pretty sure at least half of Adobe’s users are on macOS.
A fraction of 1% of desktop users use creative suite
Linux don’t need anything to challenge Windows. Windows is doing great on their own.
For gaming and home use I think Windows will slowly die off. But I see precious few enterprise customers who are willing to consider Linux desktops for anyone other than sysadmins or programmers. Some will allow Macs for general users but I’ve never seen one that allows Linux.
Enterprise is where windows has deep claws embedded.
Hard to enforce a GPO on Linux, unless it’s locked down like ChromeOS.
That’s really the limiting factor: liability and support costs.
I think you can:
- set up something like Fedora Silverblue,
- disallow root,
- disallow sysrq and such,
- allow sudo only for select few things,
- refresh configuration centrally.
I’m not sure it’s much more work than what I’ve seen in corporate environments with Windows.
I’ve managed Linux desktop fleets in enterprise-like environments. I’ll modify your list a bit:
- Use Rocky or RHEL (because the commercial software you want to use only has support for RHEL and/or Ubuntu)
- disallow root completely without exception
- do additional hardening
- don’t allow sudo for fucking anything
- run centrally controlled configuration management (most likely Puppet)
- Ironically - disallow any use of Flatpak, Snap and AppImage. They don’t play that well with Kerberized NFS-mounted home directories, which you absofuckinglutely will be required to use. (Might have improved since I tried last time, but probably not. Kerberos and network mounted directories,home or otherwise, are usually a hard requirement.)
- Install and manage all software via configuration management (again, somewhat ironically, this works very well with RPMs and DEBs, but not with Flatpak/Snap/Appimage). Update religiously, but controlled (i.e. Snap is out).
- A full reprovision of everything fairly regularly.
- You most likely want TPM-based unlocking of your LUKS encrypted drives, with SecureBoot turned on. This is very fun to get working properly in a Linux environment, but super simple to do on Windows.
And as you have guessed, on Windows this requires a bit of point and click in SCCM to do decently.
On Linux, you’ll wanna start by getting a few really good sysadmins to write a bunch of Puppet for a year or so.
(If we include remote desktop capabilities in the discussion, I’ll do my yearly Wayland-rant.)
The other thing you’ll need is for compliance and risk management frameworks (e.g. CMMC, ISO27001, CIS, etc.) to fully embrace Linux controls and environments. As of right now, it’s a patchwork full of holes and if you need to demonstrate compliance, it’s likely to be a lot more challenging running Linux workstations.
- OK. I agree, but personally hate RHEL.
- Yes.
- Suppose so.
- Brightness and sound controls too?..
- Yep, meant that.
- I thought of something like company-issued laptops, which might be good to have functional without Internet connectivity sometimes, if it’s remote work.
- Dependent on the role some users might need to regularly install software you haven’t thought about.
- Yes.
- Well, disagree about SecureBoot, there’s nothing secure about MS signing your binaries. It’s just proof they are signed by MS. Setting TPM under Linux is, eh, something I’ve never done.
I came here to say that too
He’s right. If vendors offered Linux based machines people would try. Valve is helping Linux adoption more than all the big names like Dell, Lenovo, HP… combined.
Are you talking about a Chromebook?
Aside from that… I remember when I had my very first help desk job in 2008, Dell was shipping Latitude laptops with Linux for $90 less than the laptops that shipped with Windows… which is what a lot of places did that already paid for their own licensing direct from MS.
I’m aware of Dell officially supporting Ubuntu on their business machines, I appreciate that. What I meant is the market impact. Dell sells those development oriented workstations for those who actively seek them.
Go to any consumer store, online or meatspace, anything that is not a Macbook or Chromebook comes with windows.
(Of course it’s a chicken and egg problem, stores don’t want to stock things that won’t be in high demand)
I do a lot of work setting up computers and laptops for people, mostly getting software they need installed and setting up ad blocking so I don’t need to come back later on and clean up a million viruses.
Lately, I’ve been offering a discount to people that allow me to get rid of windows entirely and install Linux, with the option to reinstall Windows for free later. I’ve had several people take me up on the offer, especially once I explain what Recall is to them. Only 1 has had me switch it back, and they needed to use some super niche piece of software that I just absolutely could not get running with wine no matter what I installed, and I suspect that it has something built in to make it not run on non-windows systems.
Basically, just explaining Microsoft’s security nightmare in a way that your average person can understand (and I mean a real average person, not the average person as people on Linux forums see them) has gotten over 2 dozen clients to switch over to Linux with minimal issues.
Also windows borking like 5 peoples SSDs certainly helped!
Do you mind sharing your “script” or bullet points how you tell people about the Recall thing?
Will just add myself here for the script
Choice is both one of Linux’s greatest strengths and weaknesses. There are so many distros that offer something great an unique, but that also leads to choice paralysis as well as fragmentation. I think Bazzite has been great for the Linux gaming space because it does offer a single user experience that reduces the knowledge barrier for those just getting into Linux.
“Everyone wants to save the world, but no one can agree on how…”
The linux problem in a nutshell
Yep, choice is nice, but everyone and their uncle rolling out distros is excessive as all fuck. Especially when there is precious little that isnt ultimately, deep down, just another flavor of Debian, Arch or Fedora.
So? There are lots of restraint and cars and people manage to just pick one
They also usually stay true to their car brand.
So the choice has been narrowed down to their house brand and the current/last year model.
So much choices… /s
Thats not actually a problem. Every other OS has that problem.
Mac will never get 100% market share because there will always be people that hate their workflow. Linux can offer a tailored version to everyone’s liking.
As long as they don’t need nividia drivers.
There are versions that ship with the proprietary nvidia driver. The reason people have issues is the distros shipping the open version due to philosophy or distros shipping the open version for compatibility reasons. The open version is worse but at least it works the proprietary version doesnt support a lot of cards.
As long as they don’t need nividia drivers.
Luckily NVidia is rather selling their GPUs to AI datacenters than to home consumers.
Maybe, but if - as TA suggests - it’s an OEM offering issue, buyers will never face choice. Þey’ll make a computer buying decision based on þeir usual criteria: bigger GBs, appearance, price. Þe specific distribution would largely be irrelevant to most. Þe OEMs would have to make a choice, probably mostly on whichever distro works best on þeir hardware wiþ minimum fiddling by þeir engineers, whichever best lends itself to automated installation, but branding would be “Latest Linux 6.18.1! Free upgrades forever!” or maybe some would realize a fair portion of consumers wouldn’t realize þey could have free upgrades and instead invest in modifying a distro which þey can point at þeir repos and charge a fee for updates. Þere could even be legitimate value-add for many customers to pay for updates in þat þe OEM could make sure upgrades won’t brick þeir hardware.
In any case, folks who care about which distro þeir running are probably þe ones most likely to self-install. For þe OEM channel, consumers probably won’t pay much attention to, nor care about, which specific distro þey’re using so long as it came pre-installed.
I’ll never not downvote comments that unnecessarily use characters like “Þ” instead of actual words.
I think they should go all the way and use both letters. Þþ is for th as in ‘thing’ Ðð is for th as in ‘the’ XP
I think the idea is to fuck with AI. Why not, it doesn’t really help much, it doesn’t do much harm either.
I agree the “harm” is small. But when the benefit is zero and the harm non-zero, the author is wasting our collective time.
I think today is the day I block @Sxan@piefed.zip … sorry dude.
I’m not sure oem adoption would make many people migrate. Here in Brazil, it’s a common practice for oems to sell computers with linux, and they cost cheaper, with the same hardware configuration. The result: people see them just as a cheaper option and ask their Tech Friend™ to install a pirated windows for them.
I don’t think that people don’t make tech choices. They actually choose windows, and will find a way to have windows, if it’s not a default. People who use linux do so mostly as a choice, not simply because it came installed.
I’m not sure it’s good for Linux to attract disgruntled windows users. It would be better to attract people who actually want to use an OS that is different to Windows, rather than ones that just want a Windows that works. Linux is not a version of Windows.
It would be better to attract people who actually want to use an OS that is different to Windows, rather than ones that just want a Windows that works. Linux is not a version of Windows.
Absolute agreement.
Around the turn of the century, we used to say something like, “Linux is for people who hate Microsoft, BSD is for people who love UNIX.”
Not much has changed in the larger discussion about Desktop Linux. General discussion is driven by how “safe” and “comfortable” Windows users feel installing and using it for the first time. It’s a bullshit discussion.
It’s a weird relationship, like a new girlfriend who is always comparing you to the last boyfriend who beat her. She may even go back to him because he is familiar, without ever recognizing that you are better in every way.
Linux as a desktop is perfectly fine and usable on it’s own, without comparison to Windows. I’ve used it for over a quarter century and had a normal life, from middle school through postgrad and a decade-long career. My kids use it for everything including school and gaming and have no problems making friends and turning in assignments. People need to get out of the poverty mindset that Windows is the standard for a desktop. It’s fucking terrible. Linux has been usable for the desktop for 25 fucking years for those who want it. Windows itself copied many things from the Linux desktop, going all the way back to the first themes on Windows XP, and now there’s an entire Linux subsystem for Windows, all because Linux has been been better at package management and dependency resolution since the Clinton administration. Windows is fucking awful as a desktop.
No one wants to use any OS.
People just want to use their computer easily, and do what they want with relatively little hindrance or concern. The overwhelming bulk of people, I’d wager, Don’t care about the OS as long as it stays the hell out of the way and isnt obnoxious.
Which is why Windows reigned for so long, because regardless of what criticism you throw at it… Microsoft was amazingly successful at creating a GUI and interface that you could set anyone in front of and they’d be able to figure out basic usage in half an hour with relatively little direction… and, especially in its heyday of windows 7, did an excellent job of just being mostly invisible to everyday use. It wasnt even a thought in your head. Just throw your disc in/download your software, and run. No thought, no worry. Just doing what you need and want to do, without having to think about it or worry about it.
Linux, depending on the distro, is finally getting close to that same place… Where you can just use it without having to think about it to much. Where you don’t have to dig into a terminal and look up command line actions and such. For basic mom&pop email and banking computers, you know…basic web based stuff, Linux has been there for I would say almost a decade at this point.
But for gaming and other stuff? I You’ve been able to do it for longer, but I’d say the past 2 years have just been an absolute golden age of being able to just do stuff without really having to worrying about your OS/proton/etc. The only remaining roadblock that requires you to stop and think at all is to see if the game uses a kernal based anticheat, and thats pretty much the only roadblock to playing a small minority of games on linux, Which doesnt feel like a small minority if those are the bulk of the games you play, in all fairness… But thats not even linux’s fault. Blame the devs for being shady fuckers for it, cause plenty of BIG games out there use regular old anticheat that doesnt have to have full root access to your computer and often does an even better job at stopping shit than the kernal anticheats.
A lot of people just want a browser that works. They don’t care at all about anything else in the OS. For them, Linux can be perfect. So if they’re disgruntled that Windows keeps shoving ads and AI bullshit in their eyeballs, when all they want to do is check their email and watch YouTube, a preinstalled Linux laptop is a great answer.
that is good point. Having tons of people who would prefer to use windows but cant or dont for some reason is the way for them starting to demand stuff that would make things more like windows. Have enough of them and they might start having an impact and who knows where that might lead, most likely nothing positive though.
To Torvalds, Chromebooks “are the path toward the desktop.”
What does he mean by this?
I struggle to believe Chromebooks will meaningfully contribute to more people adopting Linux, because Google is more interested in getting people to adopt Google instead.
Linux as we know it being very customizable and having many choices will never work for mass market. If Linux becomes a truly mass market consumer OS then it will be within walled garden of a large corporation like Google or others.
Everyday people want a computer with a brand name they recognize and for it to just work with all the big name software they know already. They likely won’t even know they are using Linux, it’s something us nerds will know but to them they are just using Google, Microsoft, Meta, or whoever else gets Linux to mass adoption.
I imagine he means things like Chromebook, rather than Chromebook itself. Mass-market consumer hardware which comes with Linux by default
The Steam Deck. It’s been my daily PC since I got it.
So Linux, “the free alternative to Windows”, needs corporate backing to sell it and make it mainstream?
This has been tried before and a lot of Linux fans don’t like it. The first time I’m aware was Lindows, which was offered on CD at Walmart and other retailers. Microsoft sued and they changed the name to Linspire. It was corporate Linux, and the best thing it had going for it was that it wasn’t Windows. Beyond that, it was kind of garbage. I mean, I guess it was Linux, but it wasn’t right somehow.
If you want a corporate backed alternative to Windows because you don’t like certain things Microsoft stands for, get a Mac. Honestly, you can’t do much better than a MacBook Air these days, but the $500 M4 Mac mini (down to $480 in some stores for the holidays) is pretty damn hard to beat. It doesn’t run most games though, but beyond that it’s fine. Just know that Apple stands for a lot of things Microsoft does. Regardless, it’s a corporate-backed OS that is an alternative to Windows, with solid hardware support… and it’s not really denting Microsoft’s market share, despite being objectively better for everything but gaming and repairability (the latter of which does not extend to Microsoft’s Surface machines, but PCs in general).
I think the best thing for Linux was the end of Windows 10’s life. Computers with 7th gen Intel and older were able to run Linux perfectly, despite Microsoft drawing the line in the sand there. My last Wintel machine ran a 4th generation Xeon, and it ran Windows 11 just fine with hacks (though not recently, I’ve been a full fledged Mac user for 2 years since that rig died).
And I think the worst thing, the thing holding Linux back the most, is the divisiveness of the Linux community. It’s not everyone, but the guys who run Arch (and some of the Debian guys) looking down their noses at the Mint and Ubuntu guys… like, suck it up princess! People gotta start somewhere, and if you show the Mint and Ubuntu guys you’re willing to help, they’re more likely to be Arch and Debian guys in the future. But for now, depending on what you like (KDE/Mint for Windows expats, and GNOME/Ubuntu for Mac users), those beginner Linux distros are just fine! It’s a foot in the door. And if they’re happy with it, more power to 'em. (And if they got a Mac? Hey, at least it’s not Windows!)
I have been using Linux for a few years now I have never seen someone say “arch btw” unironically. I swear, memers do more damage to its perception.
I first heard of Arch in 2013. It was something talked about at work as being a bit of a pain in the ass to get going, but once it was running, “kinda nice.” That didn’t interest me at the time. It still doesn’t. I didn’t want to do extra work to make my work computer functional. I borderline hate these fucking things.
I only “heard” one person bragging that they used Arch, but that was in 2017 or 2018 on a Discord thing for a game I was playing at the time. I haven’t “heard” anyone brag about it since then, but I’ve read maybe 4-5 comments since 2018 where the writer was coming off like they were proud of themselves because they use Arch.
It’s weird as fuck.
I don’t think it’s that weird personally, it’s more just a disconnect in how different people see operating systems. If you’re the type to not want to do extra work to make your computer functional you probably view your OS as more of a tool, but people proud of their arch installs usually see their OS as a hobby/project and put the amounts of research/time/effort into their OS that you’d expect from any other hobby.
As a related anecdote I see cars as tools and absolutely do not want to do extra work on them, similarly to how it sounds like you see your OS. My car people friends will spend hours fucking with their cars just to change the color of something or add a bit more power that they don’t actually need, and at the end of the day they’re really proud of their machines (exactly like people installing arch). I don’t think this is weird even tho I look at cars very differently than they do, cuz I can respect the time, effort, and knowledge they invested that makes them so proud - even if at the end of the day I still just see cars as a way to get from point A to point B.
Fair perspective. I don’t think you’re wrong, but I don’t think of the car guys and the arch people as similar.
As a non-car guy, I’ve never had a car guy try to be smug with me about an engine he built.
And I think the worst thing, the thing holding Linux back the most, is the divisiveness of the Linux community. It’s not everyone, but the guys who run Arch (and some of the Debian guys) looking down their noses at the Mint and Ubuntu guy
I don’t know what communities you’re frequenting but this is not my experience of the Linux community at all. Possibly you’re reading jokes as serious, or you’re just hanging out with lots of children (Discord?) without realising it.
The unfortunate thing is that OEMs don’t really have an incentive to ship Linux-powered systems.
Have you ever noticed how vendors who ship computers with Linux often do so at the same or greater cost than Windows? I believe I have heard somewhere that Microsoft subsidizes OEMs for shipping with Windows, which is scummy but Linux can’t really compete with this.
Have you ever noticed how vendors who ship computers with Linux often do so at the same or greater cost than Windows?
Yeah… Even when going to Linux exclusively, it’s usually better to pick the Windows device.
Not sure if they still do, but PC Manufacturers used to get kick backs from every vendor they added shovelware for. For example, E-Machines was famous for it… AOL, Adobe, Office, shareware “pay to unlock” versions of games, Norton, etc. everyone sent checks to Dell, HP, Compaq, etc, just to peddle their wares for them.
Before big commercial companies can succeed with the mainstream, flatpak permission handling that is as smooth as Android and iOS. Not everything is going to be in the distros base package manager and devs need a way to distribute software that can be expected to work on any of these devices. No confusions over why they’re system doesn’t know what to do with a deb or rpm file. Flatpak is the closest thing right now to something with universal adoption. After that it’s a slow and steady grind for market share. Like how Macs market share 20 years ago isn’t very different from where Linux is today
I think a hardware company could succeed better by marketing the devices as creation devices. Focus on Blender, Krita, Ardour, Darktable, Kdenlive, etc. Pretty much the niche Macs were marketed as 25 years ago getting regular people interested with stuff like garageband and imovie
It would be cool if FL studio and Ableton are more easily installable on Linux, but they’re not going to do it.
Professional alternatives exist.
…the Enterprise? You use the Enterprise?
