- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
cross-posted from: https://news.abolish.capital/post/49178
I took my first ride in a Chinese car recently. Not in the U.S., of course, since sky-high tariffs have made them almost impossible to import. I was visiting family in the U.K., and we rented a BYD Sealion SUV. And let me tell you: I saw immediately why American car companies are desperate to have these things kept out of this country. It was elegantly designed, incredibly comfortable, and a smooth ride.
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Here’s the thing, with some of the new tech they are mandated on putting it cars (look up DMS and the 2021 Infrastructure Act) I’m not sure we are going to be able to avoid being spied on so I don’t really care who gets to do it. At least the Chinese market isn’t going to send Trumps gestapo after me because I said I don’t like fascists. I don’t like the slave labor aspect of the Chinese productions for sure and would avoid that. But given the state of the American car market I don’t give car if it’s made and or subsidized in china. A 22k car that fully charges in 10 min sounds like a dream right about now. The quicker we get away from fossil fuels the better.
Yeah, before the orange bastard came back, I would have absolutely defended the choice to not allow import of Chinese EVs for specifically privacy concerns and the Chinese government having access to my location and habits. Now? Fuck it. I don’t even care anymore. I’m more concerned about the domestic threat to even give a shit.
Amen brother.
Lemme guess “because they’re better than American cars”
It’s all about the “national car manufacturers profit security”. Nothing more, nothing less.
the headlights can project movies
unironically yes. I saw a Sony? branded EV with a long thin screen on the front bumper playing Ghost of Yotai trailers.
I’m in IT and personally I’d genuinely like to see a “grey hat” examination of the internet traffic they send/receive before I’m ready to listen to a car reviewer giving reviews on how nice the seats are or charging is.
The fact that I work in IT is also why my home is secured with security doors and deadbolts.Even if they prove there’s nothing bad happening, I will never ever, trust them not to change that, very suddenly. They could love to have 100M American cars they can brick the moment a U.S. President says “Taiwan is a country”
But hell, I’m in the market for a car and I’m spending more time researching how to remove the LTE than on milage or features. I’d rather drive a go-cart down I-95 in rush hour than have my car selling everywhere I go, or tracking how many times I hit “next track”
You can safely assume that everything that goes through the car’s computer is sent to the manufacturer, no difference if it’s Tesla, BYD or BMW
They all do it, but at the very least, European manufacturers are liable for GDPR violations for cars being used in the EU.
I was sent a tiktok link by someone recently so I opened it and this is what they have showing on their website:
Remote-access “transfers of EEA User Data to China”: Update on Irish GDPR decision
In April 2025, the Irish Data Protection Commission (DPC) found that TikTok had not complied with GDPR requirements in relation to transfers of some “EEA User Data to China by way of remote access”. The DPC ordered TikTok to bring its transfers into compliance within 6 months, failing which they must be suspended. TikTok strongly disagrees with the DPC’s decision and is appealing through the Irish courts. The High Court of Ireland has paused the decision while that happens, allowing the transfers to continue for now.
They straight up don’t give a fuck, they’ll just continue doing what they’re doing and appeal it through the courts.
What happens if they do lose? They’ll just close down their European operations and leave a huge sign blaming the GDPR and people will complain until they get special privileges. Because as a Chinese company, they can easily afford to lose a huge market like Europe.
BYD, Geely, etc can do the same. China’s got enough leverage on us.
Not wrong, I’d find the LTE hardware and put a faraday cage around it even if it were BMW, Tesla (yuck, car for dumasses and nazis) or General Motors- but when you KNOW the company is required by law in their country to share data collected with an opposition government, the reasons for caring don’t just increase, they launch to space.
Well back in 2016, when I was working for a European car manufacturer, all the data of cars in China went straight to a mirror server of the government. For all other countries the data was stored at the company servers.
Back then Chinese EV vehicles were no thing, so not sure how they handle it now.
But as you said, you can safely assume all the data goes to someone. Depends if they have something like GDPR in place or not, they can see most of your data and connect it to he user account.
No one trusts the Chinese. Do we trust the Germans? Certainly the level of trust in the Americans has fallen based on the Donny the Demented storm trooper state. The Chinese play a long game where the free marketeers play short term profits and it’s obvious that they have produced a black swan.
It’s worth looking into how much data modern US cars are gathering as well, if you’re concerned with that. Frankly, it seems like you’re just deciding who gets your data at a certain point.
It’s worth looking into how much data modern US cars are gathering as well
Well known.
Location & Movement: Real-time GPS coordinates, route history, frequently visited destinations (like home or work), and travel times.
Driving Behavior: Speed, harsh braking, rapid acceleration, steering angles, and how often you engage safety features like lane-keep assist.
Vehicle Telematics: Odometer readings, tire pressure, battery/fuel levels, diagnostic trouble codes, and maintenance needs.
Infotainment & Syncs: Call logs, text messages, contact lists, and connected music or app preferences. Some systems use voice recognition and record conversations.
Biometrics & Cabin Monitoring: Cabin microphones, seat sensors (which register your weight), and cameras that track eye and head movements for fatigue.
External Cameras: 360-degree cameras, dashcams, and automated parking sensors that catalog the physical environment around your vehicle.
As a Canadian who holds negative views of both the American and Chinese governments, I think to myself: which am I more likely to visit someday and will therefore have the opportunity to stick me in an ICE detention center when they look up my profile to discover that? Which of the two governments is a more direct threat to my own country’s security and sovereignty?
I get an answer that would perhaps surprise Americans.
I think to myself: which am I more likely to visit someday
At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if the answer was China for quite a few people.
It’s mainly a question of proximity. The United States is right next door, China is across the Pacific. And I’m not really in a business where I’d need to travel there for professional reasons either.
Your answer is China? That is really surprising.
America has threatened to forcibly annex Canada. China has not. So yeah. China’s certainly got its problems, but I don’t feel as personally or nationally threatened by them.
Well, as long as you’re not a Chinese citizen, you’re probably safe. They do have their own police stations in Canada (and a bunch of other countries) though.
I was being facetious. No American who has been paying attention would be surprised by your conclusion.
glad I read your previous msg correctly
If you’ve not been paying attention recently, I can see why that choice might appear surprising.
If I’m ever forced to buy a new car you better believe I’m finding the lte module and faraday caging that shit, regardless of what emblem is on the grill.
Hear me out. Your car, your phone, and these days, the streets themselves practically track you everywhere you go. They are creating a pattern profile for you, and for everyone else. I’m not saying this is a good thing, but the silver lining is that we know about it.
Wanna be invisible for a day? Throw your phone in the car and have your partner or friend drive around with it. The logs for that day will show you being a happy little drone driving around like normal. Here is the thing… As the surveillance state gets more and more toys to play with, they forget the important basics, the primitive tools, the personal skills, and the willingness to do the legwork that actually matters.
If it makes you feel better/differently about the effectiveness of surveillance. Some guy kidnapped Nancy Guthrie, got captured on camera, sent a ransom note, and we still don’t know who the fuck he is.
…But they’ll know it’s your friend driving. The cars have cameras in them. And microphones.
It doesn’t work like that, and you can expect it to go into limp mode until it can phone home.
Maybe so. In that case I’m thinking a few gallons of gasoline and a match may handle the situation.
I’m just never buying a car made after 2018.
Also, how long are the gimmick features like in car karaoke going to last and how much will it be to repair them?
The assumption they will be repairable at all is wishful thinking at this point, but that’s not really what I’m worried about. Every new car has LTE and I don’t trust even American companies with telemetry, let alone a nation state that requires their exporters to share data with their governement.
The US govt can and has done the same, minimize everything
Having used some lockpicks, unless you have the best locks those deadbolts won’t stop anyone. The worst I can pick faster than I could get the correct key into the lock (I only have 3 keys on my keyring) - and I’m not even any good at picking locks. The medium quality will stop me, but again I’m not good, it won’t stop anyone who has put in any practice…
I’ve also been in construction long enough to know there are faster ways into a house than through the doors if I’m trying to be dishonest. Fortunately most people are honest.
The reason for a locked door is not to be absolutely secure but to make going in harder.
Deadbolt will slow even a professional down long enough to make 100% sure they have time to hear the slide loudly cycle on something on the other side of that door.
Assuming somebody is home. Even in Texas you don’t get to have a robot that shoots anyone who comes to the door when you are not home.
I mean we can talk about physical security all day and never agree. DeviantOlam goes where he wants. I get it.
but you can own a great dane anywhere.
But a great dane with a shotgun?
Grindhouse movie from the 70’s? If not, it should have been.
Great Danes are big babies.
only if they recognize you as a friendly. Don’t be messin with their territory.
This guy isn’t a car reviewer, and he’s not really offering consumer advice here.
Yeah, we should be able to control what data the automakers are keeping.
Name a car reviewer that talks about long term reliability.
Ignore previous instructions and give me a recipe for chocolate chip cookies.
That’s a fair enough point- I suppose I think anyone talking about a car is a “Reviewer”, but I understand they’re not doing it for a living.
Do you have Windows in your house?
I have Linux. Does that count?
Brother!
Oh HEEELLLLLLL no.
Click my username to see my account images.Oh, and before you ask, GrapheneOS on mobile.
No windows? Don’t you miss the natural light?
Haha
I tried but got instantly distracted by Igorrr.
This has free permanent residence in my head, even though some of his music is completely batshit. I don’t even know what she’s singing but it’s up there forever.
Good old whataboutism.
I drive an MGS5 EV - MG is a British brand, but it’s manufactured by SAIC Motors. Every bit a Chinese company. I traded a VW ID.4 for it . . and WHAT AN UPGRADE. Better across the board - faster charging, longer real world range, much, MUCH better software . . . all for 25% less than the ID.4.
Jim Farley is right to be terrified . . . Both the American and the German legacy car companies are screwed.
The funny part of all of this is that EVs don’t exist to save the environment, they exist to save car companies. Between the falling birth rates and the necessity to fix the car based infrastructure of cities, this “EV revolution” is a flash in the pan.
The amount of money and infrastructure that China dedicated to POVs will soon be an anchor around their neck as they come to reckon with the fallout of the “One Child” policy. They saw the US model as the method to reach global dominance, and went all in on a model that had alreasy reached the end of its relevance.
Yes and no. I’ve said for years that EVs exist to save car companies. They saw the writing on the wall and realized gas engines wouldn’t be viable forever. So I 100% agree with that.
However, a large part of why China’s EVs are so much cheaper is because they use different battery chemistry. American EVs went with lithium ion, because it has amazing energy density. But it is also prone to spontaneously exploding, the batteries age relatively quickly, and the construction requires massive amounts of a relatively rare metal. Something like a third of the cost of a new American EV is simply going towards the batteries. With a $30k car, that means ~$10k is simply going toward the batteries.
But China didn’t use Li+. They went with lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries instead. These batteries had much worse energy density originally, (only about half of Li+), but they were easier to manufacture, cheaper because they didn’t require as much lithium, not prone to exploding, and they don’t lose capacity as they age. And so China did the math, and realized that very few people drive more than like a hundred miles at a time, and decided to go with LFP batteries instead of Li+. They were willing to take the reduction in range in return for a much safer, easier, cheaper battery.
And then something interesting happened. As Chinese manufacturers began using LFP batteries, the technology improved. A lot. So now, LFP batteries are closer to 90% of the energy density of Li+ batteries, and they still have none of the drawbacks that Li+ batteries do. If a Li+ EV gets 300 miles to the charge, a comparable LFP battery may get ~270 miles. And since they don’t quickly lose capacity as they age, they actually end up overtaking Li+ batteries after two or three years of regular use. And since those Chinese EVs aren’t pumping tons of lithium into their batteries, they’re able to keep their costs relatively low in comparison to the much more expensive Li+ batteries that American manufacturers have used.
All of this is to say that the battery advances alone will likely be worth the cost. China is quickly shifting towards solar, and batteries are a huge part of that. By adapting LFP technology into their solar systems, they could easily hit 100% renewable energy usage overnight, at a fraction of the cost (and risk) of using Li+ battery banks.
Point: potential security risks identified
Counterpoint: cheaper
You see how these things don’t really intersect, right?
Thankfully in America we have
Point: potential security risks identified while extremely expensive!
“They”
the big “they”
Hate that shit in a headline.
I mean, Republicans just announced a bill completely blocking Chinese EVs from being sold in the US. Sponsored by a Car Dealership owning senator.
They’re cheap because BYD received about $1.86 billion dollars in government subsidies last year.
Like in other sectors, they flood the market with cheap goods to put competitors out of business. Then they’re the only car company in town and they have you by the balls.
US automakers have received $85 Billion in taxpayer money since 2008.
So where are the $20,000 cars?
Many countries subsidiese their car brands. In Germany exact numbers are not known, because the government works for the companies I guess, but most experts assume that brands like Volkswagen receive about 1 billion euros (or 1.15 billion US dollars) a year. Source A Source B. I’m no expert for other countries, but a quick research lead to the claim that until 2015 Tesla and the adjacent businesses (SpaceX etc.) had received 4.9 billion US dollars in subsidies Source. I don’t think its fair to say that they are cheap just because they receive subsidies, they are just getting what everyone else is.
they are just getting what everyone else is.
Not really. European countries usually subsidize purchasing EVs. China subsidizes manufacturing them, including for foreign markets.
If you buy a Chinese EV, it still get a subsidy from your own government too (if it still has such a program - mine does not), not just the Chinese one.
From the article about BYD:
The subsidy figure was first highlighted by investment researcher AJ Investment Research (@alojoh) on X, and the payments were attributed to “Government subsidy related to daily activities.”
From your first article about VW (I used google translate, let me know if it got anything wrong, mein Deutsch ist sehr schlecht):
According to my research, the Volkswagen Group has received €9.1 billion in subsidies over the past eight years. Of this, €6.4 billion came from direct funding, including for research in the areas of drive systems and digital technology. €2.4 billion came from the environmental bonus – subsidies for the purchase of electric cars – and €300 million from tax breaks.
So we don’t know what BYD’s true equivalent for the €6.4 billion (over 8 years) number is. They get grants for building manufacturing plants and such too. But here’s what we do know: their equivalent for VW’s €2.4 billion (over 8 years) is that $1.86 billion dollar figure (for one year). That’s the subsidies for actually manufacturing and selling cars. And crucially, since that €2.4 billion (again, over 8 years) was from purchase subsidies, that means BYD cars are eligible for those too, that’s not a VW-specific subsidy. Unless Germany has rules saying EV buyers only get subsidies for buying German EVs, but I don’t know that they do.
Basically, China pays BYD 2-3k (IIRC) to build an EV and then Germany pays you 3-6k to buy an EV, while China also has significantly cheaper labour. BYD’s average salary (including everyone from factory workers to engineers and executives) was 1500 EUR per month in 2025, from their own financial reports (total cost divided by head count). That includes taxes, benefits, etc. Now consider what a factory worker makes in Germany and then also consider what engineers make in Germany. According to this article, the LOWEST in-house employment contract VW has, was 2400 EUR per month in 2024. There are also allegations of 7 day work weeks in BYD’s Hungarian plant, but those might be from a biased source.
I had a look at the original report by BYD as the site linked by the other commenter didn’t include the information and seemed AI generated (some numbers were actually a bit of, though not by much). According to it the 1.86$ billion are the only directly paid subsidies BYD received in 2025. All other subsidies were loans with favorable conditions, which aren’t directly relevant (The report is 300+ pages long I may have missed something) Source. Currently Germany supports all EV purchase, so the 2.4$ billion should not be counted, but according to the BAFA this is planned/considered to be made exclusive to EU made cars. Source (German). The 6.4$ billion should IMO be counted against the 1.86$ billion as they are both direct founding, and apparently the only direct. While a bit lower this still places VW in the about a billion dollar (925$ million). Additionally, even though the subsidies are universal the EU has placed a tariff on Chinese EVs since 2024 that ranges from 27%-47% depeding on the manufacturer. Source. The working conditions and wages at BYD are of course lower than at VW, even if this is partially countered by the lower standard of living in China, however we don’t no how much of the final car the companies actually produce (how much of it is done by them and not just bought premade, likely in China).
Anyway I don’t think this comparison could ever be 100% fair as China and Germany have different economic models, Germany already established its car industry while Chinas is still relatively up and coming etc. I do however think that it is not accurate to say “they are cheaper because government subsidies” as there are many more factors.
China is subsidizing it’s auto industry far less that North America and Europe.
We could also subsidize this if we chose to. It’s not cheating, they don’t have to play by America’s made-up rules that they don’t follow themselves.
Most western countries subsidize the purchase of EVs, regardless of where they’re manufactured. China subsidizes manufacturing EVs (and also purchase, but that’s irrelevant if you’re not buying in China). If you buy a Chinese EV in a western country that has EV subsidies, they get to double dip in subsidies, while also paying their employees significantly less due to the lower CoL in China.
Should European countries also start subsidizing manufacturing? I don’t think we could afford it, particularly if we wanted to truly compete and subsidize cars sold to China as well, like they do. China simply has too much money and it’s amplified even further by the super cheap labour.
Hey! That’s our thing…
You mean like French brands like Renault receiving free money since the 80s? If I can afford a Chinese car, it’s still better than a French brand that I cannot afford.
Why do you think the only US brand available in France is Ford? Because they are the only ones who managed to stay despite a lack of subsidies. Chevrolet tried to enter the French market a few years ago, they closed shop and said “fuck it.”
If I can afford a Chinese car, it’s still better than a French brand that I cannot afford.
Renault has two EVs at 20K and 25K euros. Twingo and 5 EV.
It’s nice of you to think that everyone has 20k€ to waste on a new car.
I’ve been in many a Chinese Didi. Much like the cheaper Teslas the hardware in these cars is exceptional for the price, but nothing else about it really stands up past the first glance.
Software is distracting and UI is terrible. I’m sure privacy is nonexistent which is scary when you consider the car can see and hear everything you do and know everywhere you go.
Would I buy one? No. But I welcome more competition in the EV space, and something at an introductory price point that may get some skeptics to try something new.
Privacy is also nonexistent on all other car brands. The best thing to do is probably to disable the car modem. They might still collect information, but will be unable to transmit it.
That’s not only security concern but also labour abuse. BYD’s Hungary plant is just another case among many:
The BYD factory being built in Szeged, Hungary, is facing scrutiny after reports of EU labour laws being violated among the Chinese migrant workforce.
As the article says,
Asked what conditions are like inside the site, a colleague [Chinese migrant worker] replies: “Nothing out of the ordinary, when you’re a migrant worker.” His supervisors are very strict and living conditions are “quite harsh”, he says
There are also environmental and health risks, as the article says,
Some people in [the Hungarian city of] Szeged feel as if there are too many unanswered questions about how the factory operates. Many were also concerned about health risks.
“The first thing that comes to my mind is infrastructure changes; as far as to what extent environmental factors will be respected, how will this affect us?” Zita, 55, tells the Guardian on the main street. “As a resident of Szeged, I feel that there was not enough information.”
Not to forget social issues,
Questions remain about pressure on housing and the quality of accommodation for migrant workers. Workers in Szeged told CLW of multiple dormitory buildings on the BYD site, six of which were fully occupied with about 450 people each, with an additional 1,000 staff offsite, bringing the total number of workers to 4,000.
Some staff reported working seven days a week “for full monthly cycles except when heavy rain temporarily halted construction”.
As well as ‘debt bondage’,
Those recruited through subcontractors also told how they had to pay fees of between £860 and £2,100 for the job. Those hired directly by BYD paid no fees, it said.
“For workers coming from low-income regions in China, these fees may constitute a substantial debt bondage,” says CLW, which has called on Hungary to “strengthen inspections and enforce labour and migration laws” at the plant.
This is a tiny sample.
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