Perl is ugly but great. It’s like shell scripting with a more solid programming language. I’d never use it outside of simple scripts in my os, but whenever I do use it it’s very fun. Anyway, yeah, rust looks fine to me. Maybe they are not very experienced with it? I know some of my programs used to have lines with just x.unwrap().unwrap().unwrap() or whatever, which is not pretty.
I know some of my programs used to have lines with just x.unwrap().unwrap().unwrap() or whatever, which is not pretty.
That goes away with experience, though. At least, I can’t think of a reason why you’d nest three Results or Options. Normally, you would collate them right away.
The most you see in the wild is something like Result<Option<_>> to express that a check can fail, but even if it doesn’t, then a valid result can still be that there is nothing there.
If you don’t care that your program crashes (like .unwrap() does), then anyhow is the error handling library of choice. With it, you can just write a ? in place of an .unwrap() for practically any error type. And well, it automatically combines the errors, so you won’t be writing ??? either.
Enums and nested blocks. I understand the importance of Option and Result, but it’s fucking infuriating when I have to check and destructure the result of every function call and either bubble the result up the stack from six levels of nested iflet blocks or risk Cloudflaring my program by using .unwrap(). And while I like being able to extract a return value from an if...else expression, the structure gets really convoluted when multiple if and match blocks are nested (of course each one returning a value), and it gets completely fucked once closures are introduced.
Most of the times you can just let ... else (which is basically a custom ? if you neediflet ... else it’s because you actually need 2 branching code paths. In any other language you also do if ... else when you have 2 different code branches. I don’t see why this is a rust-specific issue.
But really it’s the exact same as other languages, it just forces you to handle it better. C-based languages will return 0/null/-1 and you’ll have to check all 3 of those because they might not mean the same thing. How is that better?
This isn’t about some feature of the language being good or bad. It’s about Rust being ugly or not. The things I mentioned will always look ugly in the source code.
It’s hilarious to me that people talk about “ugly” as if their opinions are objective.
I found Rust unpleasant to look at for the first two weeks of learning it, and now that I’ve been using it professionally for three years I loathe when I need to read code in other languages.
No other language can rival Rust in showing the exact information needed to understand the code — never too much and never too little — while being concise, correct, and handling all edge cases.
You can be more concise in other languages, but it will come the loss of handling every little possible bug. You can be prettier in other languages, but it will come at the price of adding a lot of useless boilerplate.
Of course there are cases where Rust can be verbose or confusing, but that’s when you’re doing very esoteric things that would be just as confusing in other languages.
Like any opinion on aesthetics, how someone feels about the prettiness of a language will have far more to do with familiarity than with any objective metrics.
Sadly there’s still no truly good way to handle errors in rust. TBH I’m not sure if we as an industry have figured out an efficient, foolproof, composable, not overly verbose way to handle errors, so it’s not entirely on Rust.
Rust allows you to choose whatever method you want.
Early return propagating the error
Early return ignoring the error (maybe by returning a default value)
Explicit handling by if-else (or match) to distinguish between error and not error cases.
Early return and turn the error into another type that is easier to handle by the caller.
Assume there is no error, and just panic if there is. (.unwrap)
There are only 2 error handling methods that you cannot do:
Exceptions
Ignore the error and continue execution
And that is because both of them are bad because they allow you to do the second one, when .unwrap is just there and better.
If your concept of “not ugly” is “I just want to see the happy path” then you either write bad code that is “not ugly” or write good code that is “ugly”. Because there is no language that allows you to handle errors while not having error handling code near where the errors are produced.
Yeah, I was gonna say, error handling easily makes up 80+% of the code paths, and depending on whether you’re building a library or service or script etc., different strategies are most suitable for how to deal with those code paths.
In a script, you often just want it to crash. In a library, you want to make these code paths matchable, in case the user cares why something failed. And then you have the awkward in-between, which is that 99% of your application codebase will be used by your main-function like a library, but you don’t want to spend as much effort on error handling for that as a proper library does, in particular also because you know what all consumers of your application-library need to know.
So, it’s kind of multiple different problems, with overlap, and people are hoping for one easy solution to cover all these problems.
Key point being, similar to some random languages. JS and Python Syntax don’t fit a typed and compiled language at all.
Pretty syntax would probably be something like C, where not every single character already widely reserved for specific keywords (like !, ', =) is reused in completely random ways.
Ah yes I also found macro syntax like vec
what? what part of rust is ugly?
Maybe they’re confusing the literal name with the language? Idk.
I grew up on Perl and holy fuck… Rust is fine.
Perl is ugly but great. It’s like shell scripting with a more solid programming language. I’d never use it outside of simple scripts in my os, but whenever I do use it it’s very fun. Anyway, yeah, rust looks fine to me. Maybe they are not very experienced with it? I know some of my programs used to have lines with just x.unwrap().unwrap().unwrap() or whatever, which is not pretty.
That goes away with experience, though. At least, I can’t think of a reason why you’d nest three Results or Options. Normally, you would collate them right away.
The most you see in the wild is something like
Result<Option<_>>to express that a check can fail, but even if it doesn’t, then a valid result can still be that there is nothing there.If you don’t care that your program crashes (like
.unwrap()does), thenanyhowis the error handling library of choice. With it, you can just write a?in place of an.unwrap()for practically any error type. And well, it automatically combines the errors, so you won’t be writing???either.I’m learning Perl - purely for fun - and yeah… it’s a little funky.
Enums and nested blocks. I understand the importance of
OptionandResult, but it’s fucking infuriating when I have to check and destructure the result of every function call and either bubble the result up the stack from six levels of nestedif letblocks or risk Cloudflaring my program by using.unwrap(). And while I like being able to extract a return value from anif...elseexpression, the structure gets really convoluted when multipleifandmatchblocks are nested (of course each one returning a value), and it gets completely fucked once closures are introduced.I like Rust, but calling it pretty is delusional.
Most of the times you can just
let ... else(which is basically a custom?if you needif let ... elseit’s because you actually need 2 branching code paths. In any other language you also doif ... elsewhen you have 2 different code branches. I don’t see why this is a rust-specific issue.You can also use let else.
let (Some(count\_str), Some(item)) = (it.next(), it.next()) else { panic!("Can't segment count item pair: '{s}'"); };But really it’s the exact same as other languages, it just forces you to handle it better. C-based languages will return 0/null/-1 and you’ll have to check all 3 of those because they might not mean the same thing. How is that better?
I like to use
unwrap_or()to define fallback values. TheOptionAPI is quite expressive.I’ll start using this one
Learn how to use enum error types, how error bubbling works, and how to convert between Options and Results.
It’s Rust you are talking about, not Go.
This isn’t about some feature of the language being good or bad. It’s about Rust being ugly or not. The things I mentioned will always look ugly in the source code.
It’s hilarious to me that people talk about “ugly” as if their opinions are objective.
I found Rust unpleasant to look at for the first two weeks of learning it, and now that I’ve been using it professionally for three years I loathe when I need to read code in other languages.
No other language can rival Rust in showing the exact information needed to understand the code — never too much and never too little — while being concise, correct, and handling all edge cases.
You can be more concise in other languages, but it will come the loss of handling every little possible bug. You can be prettier in other languages, but it will come at the price of adding a lot of useless boilerplate.
Of course there are cases where Rust can be verbose or confusing, but that’s when you’re doing very esoteric things that would be just as confusing in other languages.
Like any opinion on aesthetics, how someone feels about the prettiness of a language will have far more to do with familiarity than with any objective metrics.
Sadly there’s still no truly good way to handle errors in rust. TBH I’m not sure if we as an industry have figured out an efficient, foolproof, composable, not overly verbose way to handle errors, so it’s not entirely on Rust.
Rust allows you to choose whatever method you want.
There are only 2 error handling methods that you cannot do:
And that is because both of them are bad because they allow you to do the second one, when .unwrap is just there and better.
If your concept of “not ugly” is “I just want to see the happy path” then you either write bad code that is “not ugly” or write good code that is “ugly”. Because there is no language that allows you to handle errors while not having error handling code near where the errors are produced.
Yeah, I was gonna say, error handling easily makes up 80+% of the code paths, and depending on whether you’re building a library or service or script etc., different strategies are most suitable for how to deal with those code paths.
In a script, you often just want it to crash. In a library, you want to make these code paths matchable, in case the user cares why something failed. And then you have the awkward in-between, which is that 99% of your application codebase will be used by your main-function like a library, but you don’t want to spend as much effort on error handling for that as a proper library does, in particular also because you know what all consumers of your application-library need to know.
So, it’s kind of multiple different problems, with overlap, and people are hoping for one easy solution to cover all these problems.
Sum types with associated values are worth it
Literally every single bit of the syntax.
The majority of its syntax is very similar to many other languages. Can you give an example of a language with pretty syntax?
Key point being, similar to some random languages. JS and Python Syntax don’t fit a typed and compiled language at all.
Pretty syntax would probably be something like C, where not every single character already widely reserved for specific keywords (like !, ', =) is reused in completely random ways.
Ah yes I also found macro syntax like
vec![andprintln!(to be a bit jarring at first. However I don’t know if I would say that C’s approach to macros is any nicer, with it’s#definemagicBeing unable to give an actual example proves you’re just a foaming-mouth hater with nothing to contribute.
From the first syntax examples on Wikipedia:
fn main() { let foo = 10; // Suddenly, types are implicit now. A safe language should never have implicit types (now it's the (IDEs) implementations judgement which type that is. Combined with the variable shadowing "feature", this seems like a major clusterfuck. Now the IDE is the sole thing to tell you that you totally fucked up the logic, and both declarations/definitions (well which one is it? Would be nice to always have a direct KEYWORD telling you which type this fucking variable has. But no, the lazy piece of shit Rust 'programmer' left that as an exercise to the dear reader. Because in they just need to leave that part out instead of explicitly stating "I'm a lazy piece of shit" by *instead* typing 'auto'.) This is just Python-level BS. Yes, I also hate C++ for its auto keyword - but at least it explicit. println!("The value of foo is {foo}"); let foo = 20; println!("The value of foo is {foo}"); }fn add_two(x: i32) -> i32 { // That is, again, the syntax of Python. Why? Because Python is explicitly untyped. So having types be a *literal* afterthought is Ok. They're fully optional anywhere there. Now we're in Rust. They're sometimes optional, sometimes not, but they're always preferred. Yet, they're also an afterthought, seemingly. x + 2 // Implicit statements are bad. Very bad. They so much invite to glossing over stuff, especially when your brain expects to see something else. Also, having every statement ended with ;, except context blocks, but suddenly *not* having statements ending with ;, is fucking ugly (which is the entire point of this rant). It's completly inconsistent. Which in itself is a huge magnet for errors. }if x > 5 { // Now why would you leave the parantheses, which are a major contributor to readability, away. Or even allow this. Rust is just memory safe, like dozens of other mainstream languages, but continues by allowing, promoting and requiring hazardous practices. println!("value is greater than five"); }Now I’m slowly getting annoyed from typing on phone (at least in nvim), and my throat gets clogged with mucus again.
Remember, some of that are subjective preferences and opinions. And the core idea of Rust - fast but safe programs - is good, yet very obvious and not innovative at all, while the syntax and implementation (of cargo (yes I like to wait an hour for a simple webapp to compile because there aren’t binary crates and cargo just doesn’t multicore 99% of the time)) is subpar to something that’s hailed as the savior for everyone and everything by such a large cult.
“not having mandatory parenthesis in if statements is hazardous, so I prefer to write C instead of rust, because I really care about safety” < that’s how you sound.
In practice, type inference in Rust is not a problem since the language is so strongly typed. In fact, it is more strongly typed than both C and C++, and will force you to cast values explicitly in cases where C and C++ will happily mess up your variables without warning. The absence of type inference would also be a major pain, since nested types such as iterators can get quite complex and very verbose. If you’ve programmed using older C++ standards, then you know this pain
Types are not implicit, they’re inferred by the compiler when there is no ambiguity about what the type needs to be. This is a huge benefit for refactoring code and reducing maintenance. I acknowledge that sometimes you might care to know the exact type of the variable, and sometimes that’s not as easy for a human to infer as it is for the compiler, but every decent IDE will provide inline type hints for you. Interpreting code by reading it in plaintext is an exercise in masochism.
Python is actually the opposite on this, and it’s one of Python’s worst characteristics. The type is unknown until runtime unless you annotate it, and then the annotation isn’t really enforced. It’s the worst of every dimension.
C++11 introduced auto, and now the community is split between “almost always auto” and “never auto”.
JavaScript needed a whole new compiled language (Typescript) to fix its type system problems, and Typescript is only an incremental improvement at best.
Rust has the best type system of any modern language by far. If you’re tripped up by not always seeing the type declarations then you’re either focusing on the wrong details in the code or you just need a little more practice. The key thing that needs to sink in for new Rust users is that the compiler is always providing safety rails. That means it’s no longer your job to verify that every aspect of the code is correct. You can relax a little and actually have something akin to duck typing without all the pitfalls that usually come with it.
Sorry for intrusion, but mhm, nah. I get it there are people who want to play around and have language/compiler babysit them, but there are also people like me who want to see exactly what something is. So no, Rust, just like JavaScript, can be liked by some people, but it is in no way something that has “best type system”
There actually is no such thing as best type system, same way there is no such thing as best language
then go ahead and explicitly define the type of every variable. rust wont stop you from doing that
I can go ahead and just not use Rust to begin with, what is your point?
If you don’t realize that
x = 10denotes an integer of some default length, and thaty = 10.0is a float, then the language isn’t the problem.I am not gonna look for first x= expression when I want to know type
You betray so much of what your programming environment is like, with that comment. Because, you see, if you can’t behold the first
x=expression on the same screen or, at very worst, the one above, then your code is majorly and deplorably fucked. It’s utterly trashed and is in immediate need of repair. If scrolling back to the firstx=expression is overwhelming and exhausting work for you, then the codebase that you work in is mutilated beyond belief and any immediate hope. You need to drop what you’re doing, and get to unfucking you code right away so that you can have it in a comprehensible state that isn’t dependent on reminding the reader on every single line what stuff is like. You need to learn to split things in smaller things that humans can understand as their own self-contained units of meaning. When you reach the balance of formulating the code in self-contained units that can be comprehended easily, you won’t need type reminders on every line.Not to mention that if you name your identifiers properly, you won’t have to wonder what their type should be.
This is a false dichotomy when it comes to Rust. Despite everything I said and despite Lucy’s complaint, there is nothing that actually stops someone from explicitly annotating the exact type when declaring a variable. It’s just not required by the language, and most developers eventually realize that it’s not actually useful.
You’re right that these preferences are subjective, be although much of that subjectivity has more to do with how our past experiences have shaped what we’re familiar with, rather than any intrinsic characteristics of person. By that I mean, someone who uses Rust enough will most likely come to like the way the general community styles its code, sooner or later. In the meantime you’re welcome to do things in a way that suits your needs.
The only thing that Rust’s type system is weak on is runtime reflection. There are ways to achieve it within Rust’s type system, but it’s considerably more work than what you get in Python and JavaScript. Imo the only reason to choose a language other than Rust for a greenfield project is if you have a strong need for runtime reflection all over the place and aren’t very concerned about performance, threading, or avoiding entire categories of bugs that the Rust compiler protects you from.
or that I don’t want to twist my brain with Rust way of things. But I agree with you on everything else :)
If you don’t understand how having any statement be an expression is useful, you don’t have enough experience to criticize programming languages.
Average Rust code:
macro_rules! sum { ( $initial:expr $(, $expr:expr )* $(,)? ) => { $initial $(+ $expr)* } } fn remove_prefix<'a>(mut original: &'a str, prefix: &str) -> &'a str let mut up = 1; 'outer: loop {This is on the level of the esolang I made at 8 y/o, with random characters denoting random actions everywhere, at random positions.
It’s incredibly disingenuous to call this average Rust code and further erodes your credibility. I may as well point to hundreds of lines of preprocessor macros in a C++ header and call it average C++ code.
This is not what an average Rust developer is writing 99% of the time. If someone on my team submitted a PR with an implementation of
sumthat usesmacro_rules!I would almost certainly reject it.