What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
This post got brigaded; you know, that thing that the very same people accuse us of 📽
https://sh.itjust.works/post/44029753
Some of them even broke out their alt accounts, which they use exclusively for vote-spamming. One of them has a two year old account that’s never made a single post or comment. We ban those.
Anti-communist social chauvanists arguing with each other over what socialism and communism are when none of them have read theory will never stop being funny. Plus there’s one person asking for an upvoted zionist opinion, and when another user linked a zionist comment from a MWoG mod, they got banned for doing so.
Genuinely not sure what the world looks like when viewed through their myopic viewpoint.
CW gross ideation about /u/davel:
spoiler
these people are seriously unwell, absolute nazi bar.
I came across one of them saying I was a degenerate roach in another thread there:
What’s interesting is that davel doesn’t put pronouns in their name, so that comment is confusing.
for whatever reason they do show up in the modlog in the op
I had to do a double take reading that comment too, because while davel is an admin, the post did say “moderator”
Huh, interesting, I never saw that. Maybe an issue with federation?
The stormfront / kiwifarms strategy seems to be to set up shop anywhere that won’t ban them, and lets them doxx whoever they want. And there are A LOT of lemmy servers that won’t take action and ban them.
The “Every Accusation a Confession” rule of thumb strikes again.
Thank you for staying on top of this kind of shit and exposing them when necessary.
wow this one spawned a hell of a struggle session
wait until you see that there there’s a ~200 comment thread on the snark comm discussing this thread in addition!
ahahahha where?
cw: nazi bar
I can’t imagine a more useless waste of time than being on a community dedicated to anti-communism. What’s funny is when the literal fascists join in and the anti-communist liberals are always surprised that their nazi-bar is welcoming of nazis.
The australian running that comm has such a predictable worldview
‘left right terminology doesn’t have a place’ - sounds like they prefer the third position.
They’re a zionist, but in the mealymouthed ‘two state solution’ vein, probably due to their shared experience as a colonial occupier.
Checks out. PJ has similar views, the MWoG regulars seem to all roughly orbit around the social chauvanist viewpoint. Essentially, SocDems that really like NATO and the IMF, they just want more of the spoils of imperialism while maintaining it.
as always, the free speech thread is full of banned people
Is it your first time here?
Tribalism is a cancer. We dont need it anymore.
United we stand, divided we fall.
A little follow up: Why don’t you live in China or Russia if life is so bleak in the western countries?
That question is based on a bad frame of analysis. Critical support for Russia is for the role they play in combatting the imperialism of the global north, and the strong ally they are to socialist countries. It isn’t at all because people think Russia is some paradise. Further, I can totally say that Cuba has a better economic model than the US despite quality of life being lower in some areas because of the circumstances Cuba is in, it’s under massive sanctions and doesn’t have the privledged position of world empire like the US does to give it vast quantities of wealth.
Put another way, your question makes about as much sense as “oh, you’re pro-Palestine? Why don’t you move there?” This is a classic fallacy targeting anti-imperialist and pro-socialist westerners, quality of life in the west is artificially inflated due to imperialism, not because the western economic model is intrinsically superior.
As for the PRC, I’d totally live there for a few years! I don’t speak mandarin, nor do I want to uproot myself to move there long-term when my family lives relatively close to me where I am, but for a short while it would certainly be fun! China is only going to continue improving over time while the west is going to continue to stagnate and die, so hopefully we see socialism in the west in our lifetimes.
this is what you sound like
Interesting how much you we’re able to derive from my question.
Why don’t you live in China or Russia if life is so bleak in the western countries?
“if you don’t like it, leave” was the sentiment, I pointed out how you sound. It sounds like something I would expect from an american chud- hence posting a shirt I thought you’d like.
Nah, that’s how you want to understand it, because you’re here for the fight. As you can see from cowbee’s answer it’s a valid question.
They’re more charitable than I am, frankly.
I am Russian and the reason I don’t move back is because I’m trans and have a life here in the US that I’m not looking to uproot. I’m more inclined to do organizing where I live now and I certainly don’t have the resources to move back home and start from scratch there. On top of that it wouldn’t gain me anything, I would be trading one set of reactionary assholes in power for another.
If life is bleak I’m going to do mutual aid and try to find like minded people to survive with, not run away.
Lmao, we replied at almost the same time in completely different ways, that’s amazing
lmao this sort of thing is probably why people accuse us of all posting on the same schedule, clearly we just clocked in at the Kremlin
Lmao fair, I just woke up an hour ago and checked for notifications, then saw this exquisite hot take and had to comment
I actually did the exact same thing, the bait posts are just too fun
Diva 🤝 Cowbee
Combatting liberalism while sleep groggy
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
The US has big problems with human rights, that start with zionist first rule, and needing misery and oligarchist pillaging to make Americans have bigger problems than warmongering, Israel supremacy, directly corrupt and rigged elections, or “well first they are comming for the others”, and I still have bigger problems.
The NATO colonies are even far worse. Democracy means rule by those allowed by CIA, with population programmed with CIA values. The CIA programming, and total capture of politicians, means normalizing the real enemy to the NATO colonies as a permanent friend and master. The only valid elections in entire world are those approved by CIA values. Never any need for evidence of invalidity, you just take State Department/Elon Musk view that “we will coup whoever we want to coup”.
Our countries dress pure corruption as freedom. While freedom seems awesome, the freedom to corrupt, lie, propagandize you into oppression demonic evil diminishment of nations labelled less free, and you internalize those wars as a supremacist right instead of the theft of your prosperity simply makes the corruption of democracy too powerful relative to your critical thinking, attention and distractions from your oppression.
Without CIA influence over a country, it can hope to govern itself in national interest instead of CIA allied oligarchy. Russia and China are mostly successful at this. Freedom is awesome, but the powerful’s freedom to corrupt will always result in greater overall corruption, oppression, and oligarchism Normalizing CIA involvement in your media and democracy means your nation is doomed, and lemmy defending demonic evil corruption is the direct result of a lifetime of propaganda.
Liquid democracy is easily available with current technology. Already substantially implemented in crypto currency tokens. It’s the only real democracy. That people each have an equal share in their country’s government, and its revenue/left over revenue, is distributed as a dividend, means making sure there is a lot of left over revenue instead of corruption.
Ml was always pro china pro russia nothing new. I am more worried about the rise of zionism apologists
“Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?”
“No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda”
Do you folks not know that two things can be bad at the same time
Do you people get given a pre-opproved list of thought terminating cliches phrases? Because you always say that exact phrase, word for word, even when it doesn’t remotely apply to the conversation at hand, as is the case here.
Ok, just in case there’s a chance for you to be good faith. The above comment was a reply to a post about there being a lot of pro china and pro Russia propaganda being on Lemmy. It implied that the only way you can be against china and/or Russia is if you’ve fallen for western propaganda. This is a very clear fallacy, as being critical of china and/or Russia does not imply that you aren’t also critical of the west. There’s no conspiracy going on where everyone agreed to comment the same stuff, but if the same fallacy gets repeated over and over, multiple people will independently see it for what it is and call it out.
It implied
Ok, so you’re just putting words in their mouth.
This is a very clear fallacy,
Which they didn’t make, by your own admition. You just strawmanned them.
multiple people will independently see it for what it is and call it out.
Using the exact same stilted phrasing, word for word, every time?
You’re not buying any of this yourself, are you?
Wow, you sure stopped pretending you care about logical fallacies real quickly
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Funnily enough they almost always live in western democracies where they don’t need to fear reprisals for criticizing their government, something they wouldn’t dare do in China
bold assertion to make while pretty much every western ‘democracy’ is cracking down on people protesting for palestine
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lmfao hooman rights is when you do genocide and jail people protesting it
The US always needs a boogeyman to justify massive defense spending
and that’s usually us on the third world.
I saw China take COVID seriously while I was marched off to work to die because my job was “essential” - the US, EU, Canada, it was basically every Western country except New Zealand (which is an island and basically became a bunker nation for billionaires and shouldn’t really count)
I became pro-China after that.
My state of Victoria in Australia had one of the longest lockdowns in the world. As someone with an immuno compromised dad I was supportive of it. However the state is now in a lot of debt and having to cut public servants and services.
States without currency sovereignity or trade sovereignity probably can’t respond to pandemics without indebting themselves. If they can’t print money and can’t marshal the forces of production they’re basically reliant on market forces, and capital is happy to punish them for daring to get in the way of profits.
Related, COVID also proved to me that the EU is not a progressive historical force. It similarly turns sovereign nations into dependent states without currency sovereignity or trade sovereignity.
I promise you, they do not actually have to cut public services.
They have to recoup the ~$50 billion spent/invested on covid public health and financial support somehow. Yet they keep digging deeper into the $200 billion suburban rail link.
Also, when Chinese covid lockdowns were perceived as too restrictive and went on for too long, Chinese citizens in many different cities started protesting. Did the evil commie government (A) reenact the Tiananmen Square massacre to silence all opposition or (B) listen to the people and actually drop most of the restrictions? Bet most westoids will pick the wrong answer.
It’s legitimately insane how people look at the US’s dogshit excuse for a pandemic response and think other countries were too restrictive, when in reality even those that were actually trying like China was still weren’t restrictive enough.
Also, loosening of the lockdowns quickly led to more victims than the initial phase of pandemic. Malcontents were lucky that govt did not caved in sooner.
The best is once covid was declared over usa got tons of laws forcing the removal of what little protections were done.
were the party if fiscal responsibility but all that money you spent needs to get burned because screw any germ protections being kept on our watch
What I learned from covid is a lot of US states had laws criminalizing wearing any kind of mask in public because it’s considered “suspicious” or “threatening” or something, and most states are now reinstating those laws post covid.
Like what the actual fuck?
Well germ theory is woke! Didn’t you know?
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terrorized its own population
The authorities would literally nail your door shut from the outside if one person in your city block was tested positively and many people almost starved in their flats during these absolute lockdowns.
These are some yeonmi park level claims.
I think the fact that the US had a 9/11 every day for so long is actually a lot more horrifying than people being forced into screening to leave apartment complexes (which is what you’re referring to when you sensationally accuse them of “nailing doors shut”).
Being marched to my death was horrifying.
Stopping a pandemic means sacrificing some freedom of movement. The fact that China was willing to sacrifice productivity to save lives convinced me that politics are in command and, despite their market reforms, they remain committed to Marxism.
Some good answers already here, but I can only answer for myself: I used to be that kind of leftist that was “Well I want socialism, but not like those scary foreign authoritarian countries. They’re doing it wrong! Or that’s not really socialism!” At some point after learning more history and talking with others online, I’ve softened my view on these places. Some of that is learning that some of what I knew about them was straight up misinformation, but some of it comes from a shift in perspective: These aren’t abstract ideals of countries. They’re real countries. With real people, real histories, real material conditions, real geopolitical relationships to deal with, etc. They’re doing something really difficult and it’s really easy to be an armchair quarterback while sitting cozy in the US where I don’t have to deal with any of their tough decisions or the consequences of them. Am I happy with them doing some authoritarian policies? No. But maybe they’re necessary to deal with the interference of the US? I don’t know for sure if that’s the best approach, but I don’t have to imagine the counterexample of what it looks like if you don’t take defensive measures, the US has helpfully provided a bunch in the form of all of the countries they’ve backed coups in for the crime of electing even a slightly leftist government. We could squabble about better ways to deal with this, but neither of us has the full context to have an educated discussion on the matter. Also for the genuinely bad stuff, I wouldn’t go as far as specifically supporting those things, but it’s worth putting them in perspective. You can’t talk about China online without someone bringing up Tienanmen Square, meanwhile the US has been a never-ending avalanche of evil in it’s short history, but you can talk about any number of things not related to politics in the US without a random leftist wandering into the discussion about the latest hollywood movie shouting the entire lyrics to “We Didn’t Start the Fire.” I mean we’re happy to bring all that stuff up if it’s in the right context, but people are so deranged about communist countries that the ONLY thing they can think to bring up in relation to them is their less savory moments that may or may not even be true/exaggerated.
It’s really hard to sort good information from bad about these places because there’s so much propaganda. I get that those other countries have an incentive to put out their own propaganda, but it’s hard for me to know what their reach is or what their motivations are or how much they are lying vs countering US misinfo. Meanwhile I KNOW the US has a fairly sophisticated system of propaganda spanning government agencies, media companies, NGOs, etc. I KNOW the US is motivated to prop up the interests of capitalists and try to stop other countries from pushing back against them. A lot of the bad shit and lies the US has done is just straight up declassified history. So I’m sorry if I’m a little skeptical about what the empire that’s made it it’s business to deny self-determination to countries around the world has to say about those countries.
As for Russia, I’m not specifically a supporter. Ever since the USSR collapsed they’ve been another capitalist, imperialist country. But in terms of scale they’re just not even remotely comparable to the US. They are at worst a regional power and outside of nukes can’t really threaten the US on the global stage. So when the US war machine starts saber rattling about them, I know what it’s for because I’ve seen it a million times before. We always need an external enemy to justify the massive amount of money we spend on the military and all of the capitalists who profit from it. Even if I think it would be good if someone in the region pushed back against Russian aggression, I think feeding the beast that is the US military industrial complex is a net negative for the world. Not that I really have any say in it. I can’t remember the last time my congressperson or senator asked if I wanted to give another couple billion dollars to their friends in the “defense” industry. And then of course there was all the hysteria about Russian interference in our elections from the Democrats. I don’t even care if they’re right or wrong. That’s besides the point. The function of the claims is what is more valuable to look at: The implication of “Russia is subverting our democracy by interfering in our elections.” is “We had a previously uncorrupted democracy before the Russians got involved. Please ignore how our own billionaires have bought out all of our elections.” It’s a way to shore up support for a failing system by externalizing it’s problems.
I just want to live in a world where we can all live dignified lives. US capitalists are the current greatest obstacle to that dream. I’d rather have imperfect allies against that than throw my lot in with the “Endless war, exploitation, and ecological collapse” team.
Well said.
China has human rights. E.G. Trans people get gender affirming healthcare, jobs, food, and housing. Something that the U.S. does not guarantee and is actively trying to ban transgender affirming care. One of the most famous people in China is Jin Xing a trans woman. The Chinese government does not restrict transgender people in the same way that the UK and the U.S. does. Largely it is social stigma that remains in China, which will and has been changing over time.
I agree that treatment seems a non issue, but from what I’ve seen the social stigma is incredibly significant. I forget their handle, but there was a trans man on rednote that had alot to say about the stigma in his part of china. That isn’t to say the US is any better though.
That’s Theo and his rednote videos are very insightful. There probably could be better education surrounding trans people done in China to help reduce the stigma, but that is the case in nearly every country. I think as people continue to be open and vulnerable about what it means to be transgender and people become more exposed to transgender people that social stigma will change. It is part of why I live openly and honestly as a trans person. Every generation of queer folk has paved the way for the rest of us.
Ah thank you for the name drop! And yeah, I hope things improve!
Tbh in China it varies a LOT by region how you’ll be treated socially. There’s some places where trans people have dedicated medical centers and others where they’ll be persecuted. It’s a failure of uneven development they’re trying to fix. The govt there recently banned the sale of hormones online which really complicated things for trans women.
The govt there recently banned the sale of hormones online which really complicated things for trans women.
That’s if you don’t have a prescription, while the process is some what tedious to get a prescription people were giving themselves doses far above what is recommended so it was out of concern for safety not a malicious intent unlike what we see in Western countries. I would like to see China do informed consent for HRT and lift some of the barriers though.
As far as the rural v urban divide, it is a tale as old as time, not something unique to China, but at least they are doing something about it.
You can get hormones by eating gonads (eg ovaries, uterus, testes), that’s part of how those meds are made. So it won’t stop people from getting them, it just means their doses will be unpredictable.
What’s your point?
And the situation with the uigurs?
“uigurs”
China’s claim is that anything that is being done is being done to combat islamic fundamentalist groups/extremists. This seems to be backed up by international support from Muslim countries.
Genocide claims were always unfounded. However, no matter how nice the guided tours of reeducation facilities look, they are still in effect prisons, and we of course don’t know about the things that we aren’t being shown.
If your position on the topic is anything more than “They may or may not be treated that good”, you have information that nobody else has.
Cultural genocide is still genocide. You can get into if it’s to combat extremism as a separate statement.
Cultural genocide is still genocide.
Yes, by some laws/conventions/definitions of genocide it is, but China isn’t even doing that. Previously. Previously.
What about it? Say what you mean.
The genocide of them that ML refuses to acknowledge.
We absolutely do refuse to acknowledge a thing that never happened, that the US/CIA/NED made up after their “color revolution” attempt failed.
Others have given great answers, but the short-answer is that it’s not a “disinformation campaign,” nor is it organized. It’s because Lemmy has a lot of leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists, and MLs both support AES (“Actually Existing Socialism”), like the PRC, and critically support capitalist countries forced into allying with them against the Global North’s imperialism.
In terms of their net impacts on the world, the US and EU far outweigh the evils of Russia. Russia is certainly flawed, but unlike the US and EU Russia doesn’t rely on expropriating vast amounts of wealth from the Global South, sanctioning, couping, or genociding those who go against imperialism. It isn’t because Russia is some moral paragon, but because they simply lack the means to be imperialist, they are boxxed in by the west and lack the financial capital to rely on expropriation of wealth.
As for the PRC, it gets far more support, because it’s the leading socialist country. 800 million people were lifted from poverty, and it’s rapidly improving. Even when the west runs propaganda against them, like the COVID lab leak theory or the Chinese spy balloon hysteria, the PRC is being widely supported by the Global South as the PRC is providing a genuine alternative to the genocidal west.
If you (or anyone else) want an introduction to Marxism-Leninism, here’s my Read Theory, Darn It! introductory reading guide!
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
I can’t stand this shit when fake leftists defend authoritarian, imperialist states because they oppose the west.
Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is about forcing Ukraine to be neutral to NATO, and resolving the conflict between Kiev and the Donetsk and Luhanks People’s Republics that requested Russian support after the Minsk agreements fell through due to Ukraine failing to keep up their end of the bargain. It isn’t an imperialist war, the goal is not expropriation of wealth, it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded from the ground, such as in World War II by Nazi Germany.
Russia is not worthy of critical support just because “west bad.” Russia can’t imperialize countries like the west has. It tried, back when Putin requested to join NATO 2 decades ago, but Russia was denied because the Nationalists in Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s. As a consequence, Russia is forced to ally with the anti-imperialist countries, largely made up of countries in the Global South and socialist countries. The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder, because Russia physically cannot imperialize in the same way the west does. It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
If you’re going to call leftists “fake,” then you should at least do the due dilligence to familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
The Minsk agreement has nothing to do with the formation of the Donetsk “republic”.
Though Russia respecting the territorial integrity of Ukraine was a big part of it nobody seems to remember.
Yanukovych refused to sign a free trade agreement with the EU that the Ukrainian Parliament had ratified, leading to the largest democratic protests in Europe in decades. When he was ousted from power, Russia realized they were losing their puppet, invaded Crimea and fully backed fringe separatist movements providing money, arms and Russian regulars on “vacation” to generate a pretext for the 2014 full scale invasion.
it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded
NATO is a voluntary defensive alliance. The only reason it has expanded is because Russia continually tries to invade the former Soviet republics.
If eastern Europe wasn’t terrified of Russia, they wouldn’t be applying to join.
Putin requested to join NATO 2
Sure Putin at some point allegedly expressed interest in joining NATO. Who the fuck knows what happened but he also allegedly refused to apply for membership.
Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s
Do you have any idea what the market is like in Russia? Have you ever even visited? It’s a state run by robber barons with palaces and yachts all over the world. The west couldn’t plunder what Putin and his cronies have already robbed.
Look at what China managed to build since the 90s and look at the failed state of Russia after decades of Putin’s rule.
The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder
You mean the gold mines Wagner was running in Africa to plunder for the Russian war chest?
It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
You acknowledge Russia wants to, but you admit the only reason they don’t, is that they can’t? So we’re in some sort of agreement here.
familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
Attempting to expand your countries power through military action is the textbook definition of imperialism.
Marx (correctly) views imperialism as an inevitability of a capitalist system due to its drive to expand and accumulate capital, but he didn’t define the word.
What’s most disappointing is how little respect is given to democratic movements by authoritarians posing as socialists. People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
Which Ukrainians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Banderite fascists?
- The eastern & southern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from an unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites for nearly a decade, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
- The western Ukrainians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
Previously: If not for the US/NATO, this war wouldn’t have happened in the first place.Which Russians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Wagner fascists?
- The Russian democrats and anti-fascists who, after opposing Putin’ss unelected government, were subsequently terrorized by the FSB for nearly a decade before being imprisoned or killed?
- The Eastern Russians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
See how easy it is to write this bullshit? And mine is actually true.
You’ve rejected western propaganda, which is fair, but then rather than engaging with reality critically, you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
What’s your point, that Ukrainians are an undifferentiated mass of Euro stans like our government and media portray them? Because that’s bullshit. We’re not talking about Russians, we’re talking about Ukrainians, including those with linguistic, cultural, familial, and business ties to Russia.
you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
Do you think I’m watching RT and reading Pravda? Almost everything I’ve read or heard has come from Western sources. Almost all the links in my previous comment are Western sources.
The western trade agreement required privatization of safety nets and general austerity politics, the Russian loans did not. The Russian loans had more respect for the sovereignty of Ukraine than the western loans, hence the decisuon of Yanukovych. The nationalists in the west couped the government with the assistance of the west, installing the Banderite nationalist regime, while the ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk seceded after seeing their president get couped.
NATO is an alliance of imperialist states that has been led by Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. Its sole purpose is to perpetuate imperialism, and encircle countries that oppose having their markets plundered by the west. Russia is not trying to “continually invade” countries.
Putin wanted to join NATO because Putin wanted Russia to be able to imperialize the global south like the west does. Pretty clear-cut.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country owned by capitalists. The PRC is socialist, which is why it has achieved far more in the same span, and did not collapse into capitalism like Russia did.
The Sahel States are a coalition of anti-imperialist countries that are nationalizing their industry and focusing more on trading finished goods than raw materials. This was impossible when the west was imperializing them, Russia is not imperializing the Sahel States because they can’t.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country that, by circumstance, is forced to align with progressive, anti-imperialist movements and socialist countries. Nobody is saying “Russia is a perfect country that is ideologically pure,” that’s the point of critical support.
Russia is not trying to expand their power through conquest, their goal is to demillitarize Ukraine and ensure its neutrality with NATO, as Ukraine is the best front to stage a war on Russia.
Marx analyzed imperialism in its very early stages, it was Lenin that expanded that theory into the Marxist canon and thoroughly established and analyzed it. There are practically no Marxists that reject Lenin’s analysis of imperialism.
I do listen to Ukrainians, support for the war is falling sharply, and the ethnic Russians in LPR and DPR have wanted independence from Ukraine for over a decade. The best thing for the Ukrainian working class is a quick surrender of the 4 oblasts, NATO neutrality, and a prompt socialist revolution to oust the Banderite regime.
I do listen to Ukrainians
Except when they democratically decide on closer ties with the EU?
I want to focus on your belief that NATO started this war and that Russia is somehow defending itself because it’s inherently contradictory. It requires you to believe the following:
- The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement, but Yanukovych was.
- The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones, but the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
Can you speak more to those ideas?
The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement
It was a fast moving process. Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known. Russia did make a much better offer than EU, and Yanukovych was right to prefer it.
The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones
While there is an obvious pull among the young to get western values, CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes. The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing. Not informed pragmatic study of all alternatives.
the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
The nazi rulership, installed by US, immediately massacred opposition in Odessa, removed Russian language rights, and wanted to seize Crimean port out of Russian lease. Ukrainian naziism has become the new western liberal values, but most people don’t like nazis, and especially not their “subhuman labelled” targets for extermination.
Your previous post was dishonest as well.
Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known.
I think you’re conflating two separate issues. The IMF was not involved in trade talks between the EU and Ukraine. It was when Ukraine was seeking loans but Yanukovych didn’t reject to ratify the EU bill because of the IMF.
CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes
To what end goal?
Is it so hard to believe that given the choice between closer ties to the EU or a gay hating, poverty stricken state run by robber barons and oligarchs, Ukrainians might have preferred the EU?
The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing.
This isn’t a fair argument, I could say the same thing about you, and you could say the same about me. How can we find truth when we both believe the other is simply regurgitating programming from some shadowy propaganda source.
I’ll ask this: Do you feel yourself entrenched in these views or are you actually open to changing them through discussion?
immediately massacred opposition in Odessa,
This didn’t happen though.
removed Russian language rights
This also didn’t happen.
NATO has been pressing eastward despite making agreements with Russia that it would not. From the beginning, NATO was formed as an anti-communist alliance, and even after the Soviet Union fell it has been a key tool in encircling Russia to get them to open up their markets to foreign plunder, a tried and true strategy used elsewhere.
Yanukovych was correct in not pursuing the western requirement of austerity politics and becoming a puppet of western countries. NATO used this as an opportunity to overthrow Yanukovych and install a far-right Banderite regime. When the Donbass region wanted to secede, Kiev responded with ethnic repression in the form of language suppression and outright shelling, shelling which accelerated in the weeks leading up to Russian invasion.
With a far-right regime that is violently Russophobic and is cozying up to the number 1 anti-Russian millitary alliance in the world right on their borders, Russia decided to invade when diplomacy fell through. Russia does not give a shit about extraction from Ukraine. They are not in this for the plunder. Russia purely wants Ukraine to promise NATO neutrality, and stop the ethnic cleansing in Donetsk and Luhansk.
This is the bog-standard communist take. Orgs like The Party for Socialism and Liberation have released statements, same as FRSO’s statement. You are unfamiliar with communism yet are trying to use it against itself.
Did you respond to the correct post? This isn’t relevant to what I asked.
Lol, OP is mad they got their post removed for claiming that Covid was a Chinese bioweapon.
