What’s your take? I’m not sure if I know of an historic case of it like IDK maybe 200 or 150 years ago but nowadays I have several cases near of autistic people, so what do you think is old or new?
I think it’s old. I heard reference to it in old Yoga books. They called it “habitually one-pointed”. They considered it desirable.
Also in a book about shamens. They called it the teaching disease. Because it teaches you some otherwise difficult to grasp stuff about reality.
You know how there’s the old schoolhouse stereotype that there’s always a “weird kid” in every class? There’s a good chance that kid was an undiagnosed autist.
The current estimates for autism rates is around 1 in 30. Which means every classroom is expected to have 1 autistic kid. Matches perfectly with the “weird kid in class” stereotype. People recognized autism since forever. That’s why the stereotype exists. It’s just that they didn’t have an actual word for it yet.
Yeah even when I was in my school days there was always “that kid” anyway I feel like in recent days there is a lot more of that cases like it was something external what is causing it but anyway it’s just a feeling I guess.
I get what you mean. I’ve suspected it’s a combination of factors:
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People have a name for it now. You can’t announce or be prideful about something that you don’t have a name for
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People are more accepting of autism now. You’d be more incentivized to hide autism if people thought it was a bad thing
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Autistic people tend to attract other autistic people. If you know one autistic person, you probably know a whole bunch of other autistic people too
But also, I just think that a lot of people underestimated how many people were autistic back then. A lot of high-functioning autistic people can pass for normal until you really get to know them. For instance, I’m like 99% sure that both of my parents are high-functioning autistic, and nobody ever suspected they might be. I brought up the possibility to them and their response was just, “yeah, I figured.”
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“been developed”? *facepalm
Sorry about my shitty English, no es mi idioma principal pero podemos hablar perfectamente en español si gustas 😉😉
No hablo español. Perdona que me molestara el problema gramatical. No era mi intención ser ofensivo de ninguna manera.
The thing is that “been developed” strongly implies that there was an active and intentional developing (inventing) of it. Sadly there are many people that do pose such questions, purposely framed in that manner. So I suppose i reacted based on a misunderstanding of that meaning. Cheers and be well :)
Oh, now I understand — it was my fault, sorry. I’ve never been in any English-speaking country directly, so I don’t really know how words are used when you’re a native English speaker. In Spanish, we say “desarrollar” (“to develop”) not only when there’s an intentional action, but also, for example, when people get sick or have a condition — we say they “developed” the illness. In the case of autism, I understand that generally people are, let’s say, “normal” until a certain age, and it’s then that autism “develops,” so to speak.You don’t have to apologize at all.
I’m not bothered or anything. It’s just that my English is really bad sometimes, for that reason.
Others have answered but I feel obliged to add this.
Autism as a diagnosis is relatively new, but people would have always had traits that would be thought of as nowadays as autistic. As an example, Rube Waddell was a professional baseballer in 1897 who was so fascinated by firetrucks that he would run off the field mid-game to chase them.
Is gravity something new or did it exist before Newton described it?
Until the early 1900s, “mild” mental illness such as autism just didn’t exist in a medical sense. People were “odd”, “eccentric” etc and even after autism was formally recognised and studied in the 1940s it was virtually unheard of. Again, people were odd, a bit weird or eccentric.
There are no records of diagnosed cases of autism or similar before the 1900s because nobody recognised them for what they were.
Serious mental health issues have been recognised for thousands of years. Records of diagnoses of “lunacy” and “insanity” go back to the 1400s in the UK. Back then the cure was imprisonment in a cage and with regular blood letting and being plunged in cold water.
My only correction would be that autism isn’t a mental illness. It’s a difference in brain structure - synaptic density seems to play a significant role (https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/a-key-brain-difference-linked-to-autism-is-found-for-the-first-time-in-living-people/).
“Eccentric” would indeed have been the word, even as late as the 80s. And that’s just men; women often present symptoms differently, or different symptoms entirely and even today ASD can go unnoticed for much longer in young women.
The definition and classification of mental disorders are key issues for researchers as well as service providers and those who may be diagnosed. For a mental state to be classified as a disorder, it generally needs to cause dysfunction.[15] Most international clinical documents use the term mental “disorder”, while “illness” is also common. It has been noted that using the term “mental” (i.e., of the mind) is not necessarily meant to imply separateness from the brain or body.
According to the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV), published in 1994, a mental disorder is a psychological syndrome or pattern that is associated with distress (e.g., via a painful symptom), disability (impairment in one or more important areas of functioning), increased risk of death, or causes a significant loss of autonomy.
In 2013, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) redefined mental disorders in the DSM-5 as “a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual’s cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning.”
I dunno, sounds to me like autism fits fine with “mental illness”, possibly depending on the severity/placement on the spectrum. Note that mental illness isn’t something easily defined. I just pulled the quotes above from Wikipedia.
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/autism-spectrum-disorders-asd
Autism isn’t a “mental state”, it is structural differences in the brain. Being included in the DSM doesn’t automatically classify something as a mental illness, the DSM is published by a single body, the APA. Other professional individuals and organisations have opinions on that: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/the-concept-of-mental-illness-and-why-the-dsm-approach-is-wrong
Being included in the DSM doesn’t automatically classify something as a mental illness
No, but those descriptions of a mental illness I thought fit autism fairly well. 🤷♂️ That’s what I meant.
would you consider left-handedness a disability? just because someone struggles with things that suit the majority doesn’t mean it’s an illness
autism isn’t a mental illness. It’s a difference in brain structure
Define mental illness?
This seems incredibly disingenuous when you can just go search the internet for the definition, and why autism isn’t a classified as mental illness, but sure, I’ll humour you.
“Autism” is a spectrum of developmental disorders that stem from those brain structure differences I mentioned. An illness is when something is wrong. Not just different, wrong. There’s nothing “wrong” in an autistic person; autism is not a disease or sickness caused by some outside force like a virus or bacteria or drug; it’s not transmissible, and it cannot be developed post hoc (meaning you can’t acquire autism, you’re born with it). There’s no innate reduction in function. It can’t be treated or cured; the symptoms of the mental illnesses caused by dealing with neurotypicals can, but again those aren’t something we’re born with; those are acquired.
At the root of it, we just process information differently than a neurotypical person due to our brains growing differently. It’s like saying ARM is “silicon illness” because it’s not x86_64.
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/publications/health-matters/what-is-autism
This seems incredibly disingenuous when you can just go search the internet for the definition
The F? That’s what I did, and posted in the other comment. :-P
I think there’s a definition of “wrong” here as well. That’s a very subjective definition. My god son has autism, and he has problems in school, and it makes life difficult for his parents and siblings. That’s not “wrong”? It creates harm in some definition.
I dunno, I’m not trying to blame autistic people or make them seem bad or worth less or something, I’m just saying that it sure feels like an illness sometimes. I also suspect I have some ultra mild placement on the spectrum, and it can be challenging in certain situations.
I was responding when you posted that, so I didn’t see it, and you didn’t respond to me, so if you hadn’t said that I might not have seen it at all. And you didn’t bother to look before responding to me because…?
Moreover, I did you a favour by responding with relevant information instead of just telling you to educate yourself, and you want to act like I’m an asshole for pointing out why your question seemed disingenuous? Cool, cheers.
and you didn’t respond to me, so if you hadn’t said that I might not have seen it at all.
But I did respond to you. The comment with the definitions from Wikipedia is a response to your comment.
And you didn’t bother to look before responding to me because…?
Didn’t bother, or didn’t have time at the moment. 🤷♂️ Sometimes life happens. When I had time, I bothered, as you saw. 👍
you want to act like I’m an asshole
What? No, I don’t. Why would I? 🤨
Probably any neurodivergence that results in causing harm to self or others, and inability to conform with societal norms.
I pulled that out of me arse but it sounds logical enough.
I added this comment.
Back then the cure was imprisonment in a cage and with regular blood letting and being plunged in cold water.
And by drilling holes in the skull. Plus probably various other horrible ‘treatments’ that just created extra problems without fixing the original (and very vaguely understood) issue.
Here’s a metaphor. With technological advancement we’re discovering new stars every day. Does that mean they just appeared?
The old joke “what was the tallest mountain before Mt. Everest was discovered?”
“Mt. Everest”
Olympus Mons
Mouna Kea, it’s got a larger base to tip hight, it’s just mostly under water.
Well, if no one could observe them, you could say that they both existed and not existed.
I know you’re not supposed to diagnose historical figures, but Kant is like the textbook definition of autistic. He made the rule that he would smoke one pipeful of tobacco a day, and lamented for years that he couldn’t find a bigger pipe. His moral philosophy also demonstrates the kind of rigid thinking that is characteristic of autism.
I never correlated this but it sticks. Another notable probably autistic figure was Isaac Newton
The word is fairly new. But so is a shitton of other medical diagnosis like “cardiomyopathy”, “congenital heart disease”, " carditis", “aortic aneurysm”, “peripheral artery disease”, and on and on
I feel like suddenly all kids are autistic nowadays, I’ve talked about it with my parents they are 70ish and teachers and they both say in the years they worked there weren’t as many kids with some condition. I feel like maybe the human DNA has degraded too much in 2 or 3 generations.
Scientific consensus is that we now recognise and diagnose autism better than ever. Previously children that struggled in school would be labelled as troubled or slow or any number of other things. The thing about autism is that like many other things it is a spectrum, and thus previously many people with mild autism would have just cruised through and been thought of as odd or antisocial. Often when really questioned, people like your parents can think of a few people like this from their school days that might now fit the definition of autism spectrum disorder.
Also, it’s worth noting that human DNA does not and cannot degrade in any manner you suggest and that kind of reasoning has unscientific and innapropriate connotations that might associate you with very disagreeable groups.
Roughly 95% of all new autism cases in the last 10 years can be accounted for in the broader definition of what autism is.
Plus the idea that DNA has “degraded” and that’s what causes autism is, frankly, so stupid as to be hilarious.
I dont believe teachers or parents to be qualified for such diagnosis. It could be that the kids are angry, annoyed, or annoying, and people think it’s autism because they saw one once in a movie. Remember that adults are not very smart in general.
Another theory could be that those 70 years old people are boomers that have been spanked a lot and are more quiet compared to kids whose parents let them do anything (too much freedom and not enough education).
Anyway, I wouldn’t trust people to judge anything medical. My boomer parents say stupid things most of the time, yet they do it confidently and think their opinion is the only valid one.
A dumb opinion would be that not caring about others and saying stupid stuff is “autistic,” are all the boomers autists after all? See what I did?
I’ve talked about it with my parents they are 70ish and teachers and they both say in the years they worked there weren’t as many kids diagnosed with some condition
I can almost guarantee they worked with tons if autistic kids, they just didn’t know it.
Why do I say that? Because I’ve had multiple teachers tell me that my diagnosed AuDHD kid isn’t autistic. Clearly, the teachers who only see the kids while masking and yell at them when they act out would know better than a trained professional or the parents who see them when they feel safe and don’t have the energy to mask anymore.
I feel like maybe the human DNA has degraded too much in 2 or 3 generations.
Ancient Greeks notwithstanding, being non-heterosexual was considered a disease to be eliminated or cured until people finally accepted that it was a natural part of being an animal. Would you say being gay is a consequence of flawed genetics, or would you like to try phrasing that remark a bit differently?
Seems like the consensus taking shape in these comments, the way I understand it anyway, is that the only new thing is pathologising neurodivergence and beginning to actually accept such people into society. Treating it as something new or out of control is merely a reaction to new norms.
A lot of kids are not neurodivergent, still. But there are enough that school budgets for special needs in many or most places are very badly under-provisioned. I worry that if schools are not going to get massively higher funding, they will be faced with either under-serving neurodivergent kids like they used to, or fundamentally rethinking some things.
I choose to believe that autism appeared only after the invention of railway, and you can’t convince me otherwise.
I can’t find it right now but if I could I’d post the one about the ancient greek or roman dude with a interest in ships that would watch them enter and leave port and knew each one by name
I just also searched for that meme and gave up, but lo!
I think it was more specifically the creation of Thomas the Train engine.
He was a tank engine!
I don’t think the codex astartes has something for dealing with that kind of machine spirit
Come on. We all know it’s because the vaccines
Even as recently as 30 or 40 years ago, “problem” children would be hidden away, either in the home or sent to some sort of facility. Neuro divergence was a hidden issue.
I was “easily distracted” and “underperformed” and “could do better” at school. Always the “weird” kid. Only diagnosed when I was an adult because “autism” just wasn’t really a thing*. This was 40+ years ago. The general treatment approach was getting The Belt haha or sent to my room, or sent to my gran’s, or sent “out to play”.
*edit: when I was a kid
That sounds exactly like my story though, by the looks of it, I am a bit younger than you.
And before that, we were doppelgangers that had stolen people’s children away: https://youtube.com/shorts/WH5zYErWmAQ
JFK invented it so he could destroy it
Some quick extra bullet points as I’m short on time and much of what I want to say has already been said in this thread:
- I strongly recommend Behind the Bastards’ 2-parter on fake autism cures (huge trigger warning for child abuse though), and just as strongly Rowan Ellis’ video essay on autism representation. Both could be listened to during chores or work. https://youtube.com/watch?v=WA9B4_e6sS0
- If you’re making an intentional, good-faith effort to be kind and curious, then as an autistic person I deeply appreciate your showing up, and please don’t let the downvotes make you any less curious.
Just because it’s diagnosed easier now doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.
