You must log in or register to comment.
I suppose this will become an arms race, just like with ad-blockers and ad-blocker detection/circumvention measures.
There will be solutions for scraper-blockers/traps. Then those become more sophisticated. Then the scrapers become better again and so on.I don’t really see an end to this madness. Such a huge waste of resources.
there is an end: you legislate it out of existence. unfortunately the US politicians instead are trying to outlaw any regulations regarding AI instead. I’m sure it’s not about the money.
Madness is right. If only we didn’t have to create these things to generate dollar.
This is surely trivial to detect. If the number of pages on the site is greater than some insanely high number then just drop all data from that site from the training data.
It’s not like I can afford to compete with OpenAI on bandwidth, and they’re burning through money with no cares already.
You can compress multiple TB of nothing with the occasional meme down to a few MB.
Yeah sure, but when do you stop gathering regularly constructed data, when your goal is to grab as much as possible?
Markov chains are an amazingly simple way to generate data like this, and a little bit of stacked logic it’s going to be indistinguishable from real large data sets.
Imagine the staff meeting:
You: we didn’t gather any data because it was poisoned
Corposhill: we collected 120TB only from harry-potter-fantasy-club.il !!
Boss: hmm who am I going to keep…
The boss fires both, “replaces” them for AI, and tries to sell the corposhill’s dataset to companies that make AIs that write generic fantasy novels
I’m so happy to see that ai poison is a thing
Don’t be too happy. For every such attempt there are countless highly technical papers on how to filter out the poisoning, and they are very effective. As the other commenter said, this is an arms race.
It’s so sad we’re burning coal and oil to generate heat and electricity for dumb shit like this.
im sad governments dont realize this and regulate it.
Wait till you realize this project’s purpose IS to force AI to waste even more resources.
I mean, the long term goal would be to discourage ai companies from engaging in this behavior by making it useless
Here’s a thing - it’s not useless.
This gives me a little hope.
I mean, we contemplate communism, fascism, this, that, and another. When really, it’s just collective trauma and reactionary behavior, because of the lack of self-awareness and in the world around us. So this could just be synthesized as human stupidity. We’re killing ourselves because we’re too stupid to live.
Unclear how AI companies destroying the planet’s resources and habitability has any relation to a political philosophy seated in trauma and ignorance except maybe the greed of a capitalist CEO’s whimsy.
The fact that the powerful are willing to destroy the planet for momentary gain bears no reflection on the intelligence or awareness of the meek.
“Markov Babble” would make a great band name
Their best album was Infinite Maze.
Deployment of Nepenthes and also Anubis (both described as “the nuclear option”) are not hate. It’s self-defense against pure selfish evil, projects are being sucked dry and some like ScummVM could only freakin’ survive thanks to these tools.
Those AI companies and data scrapers/broker companies shall perish, and whoever wrote this headline at arstechnica shall step on Lego each morning for the next 6 months.
Feels good to be on an instance with Anubis
Do you have a link to a story of what happened to ScummVM? I love that project and I’d be really upset if it was lost!
Thanks, interesting and brief read!
Thank you!
one of the united Nations websites deployed Anubis
Wait what? I am uninformed, can you elaborate on the ScummVM thing? Or link an article?
From the Fabulous Systems (ScummVM’s sysadmin) blog post linked by Natanox:
About three weeks ago, I started receiving monitoring notifications indicating an increased load on the MariaDB server.
This went on for a couple of days without seriously impacting our server or accessibility–it was a tad slower than usual.
And then the website went down.
Now, it was time to find out what was going on. Hoping that it was just one single IP trying to annoy us, I opened the access log of the day
there were many IPs–around 35.000, to be precise–from residential networks all over the world. At this scale, it makes no sense to even consider blocking individual IPs, subnets, or entire networks. Due to the open nature of the project, geo-blocking isn’t an option either.
The main problem is time. The URLs accessed in the attack are the most expensive ones the wiki offers since they heavily depend on the database and are highly dynamic, requiring some processing time in PHP. This is the worst-case scenario since it throws the server into a death spiral.
First, the database starts to lag or even refuse new connections. This, combined with the steadily increasing server load, leads to slower PHP execution.
At this point, the website dies. Restarting the stack immediately solves the problem for a couple of minutes at best until the server starves again.
Anubis is a program that checks incoming connections, processes them, and only forwards “good” connections to the web application. To do so, Anubis sits between the server or proxy responsible for accepting HTTP/HTTPS and the server that provides the application.
Many bots disguise themselves as standard browsers to circumvent filtering based on the user agent. So, if something claims to be a browser, it should behave like one, right? To verify this, Anubis presents a proof-of-work challenge that the browser needs to solve. If the challenge passes, it forwards the incoming request to the web application protected by Anubis; otherwise, the request is denied.
As a regular user, all you’ll notice is a loading screen when accessing the website. As an attacker with stupid bots, you’ll never get through. As an attacker with clever bots, you’ll end up exhausting your own resources. As an AI company trying to scrape the website, you’ll quickly notice that CPU time can be expensive if used on a large scale.
I didn’t get a single notification afterward. The server load has never been lower. The attack itself is still ongoing at the time of writing this article. To me, Anubis is not only a blocker for AI scrapers. Anubis is a DDoS protection.
Could you imagine a world where word of mouth became the norm again? Your friends would tell you about websites, and those sites would never show on search results because crawlers get stuck.
That would be terrible, I have friends but they mostly send uninteresting stuff.
Better yet. Share links to tarpits with your non-friends and enemies
No they wouldn’t. I’m guessing you’re not old enough to remember a time before search engines. The public web dies without crawling. Corporations will own it all you’ll never hear about anything other than amazon or Walmart dot com again.
Nope. That isn’t how it worked. You joined message boards that had lists of web links. There were still search engines, but they were pretty localized. Google was also amazing when their slogan was “don’t be evil” and they meant it.
No. Only very selective people joined message boards. The rest were on AOL, compact or not at all. You’re taking a very select group of.people and expecting the Facebook and iPad generations to be able to do that. Not going to happen. I also noticed some people below talking about things like geocities and other minor free hosting and publishing site that are all gone now. They’re not coming back.
I was there. People carried physical notepads with URLs, shared them on BBS’, or other forums. It was wild.
There was also “circle banners” of websites that would link to each others… And then off course “stumble upon”…
Yes! Web rings!
I forgot web rings! Also the crazy all centered Geocities websites people made. The internet was an amazing place before the major corporations figured it out.
There used to be 3 or 4 brands of, say, lawnmowers. Word of mouth told us what quality order them fell in. Everyone knew these things and there were only a few Ford Vs. Chevy sort of debates.
Bought a corded leaf blower at the thrift today. 3 brands I recognized, same price, had no idea what to get. And if I had had the opportunity to ask friends or even research online, I’d probably have walked away more confused. For example; One was a Craftsman. “Before, after or in-between them going to shit?”
Got off topic into real-world goods. Anyway, here’s my word-of-mouth for today: Free, online Photoshop. If I had money to blow, I’d drop the $5/mo. for the “premium” service just to encourage them. (No, you’re not missing a thing using it free.)
I guess this is marketing. But … Why would you use anything besides GIMP?
After a Decade of Waiting, GIMP 3.0.0 is Finally Here!
https://news.itsfoss.com/gimp-3-release/Removed by mod
How do you know that’s a bot please? Is it specifically a hot advertising that online photos hop equivalent? Is it a real software or scam? The whole approach is intriguing to me
Edit: I Will assume honesty in this instance. It’s because they’re advertising something in a very particular tone, to match what some Amerikaanse consider common language.
Normal people don’t do that.
AI is the “most aggressive” example of “technologies that are not done ‘for us’ but ‘to us.’”
Well said.
Funny that they’re calling them AI haters when they’re specifically poisoning AI that ignores the do not enter sign. FAFO.
Fair As Fuck Ok?
First Albatross, First Out
Fluffy Animal’s Fecal Orifice.
Wait… I just had an idea.
Make a tarpit out of subtly-reprocessed copies of classified material from Wikileaks. (And don’t host it in the US.)
The ars technica article: AI haters build tarpits to trap and trick AI scrapers that ignore robots.txt
AI tarpit 1: Nepenthes
AI tarpit 2: Iocaine
thanks for the links. the more I read of this the more based it is
Thank you!!
This might explain why newer AI models are going nuts. Good jorb 👍
It absolutely doesn’t. The only model that has “gone nuts” is Grok, and that’s because of malicious code pushed specifically for the purpose of spreading propaganda.
what models are going nuts?
Not sure if OP can provide sources, but it makes sense kinda? Like AI has been trained on just about every human creation to get it this far, what happens when the only new training data is AI slop?
AI being trained by AI is how you train most models. Man, people here are ridiculously ignorant…
Nice … I look forward to the next generation of AI counter counter measures that will make the internet an even more unbearable mess in order to funnel as much money and control to a small set of idiots that think they can become masters of the universe and own every single penny on the planet.
All the while as we roast to death because all of this will take more resources than the entire energy output of a medium sized country.
I will cite the scientific article later when I find it, but essentially you’re wrong.
water != energy, but i’m actually here for the science if you happen to find it.
This particular graph is because a lot of people freaked out over “AI draining oceans” that’s why the original paper (I’ll look for it when I have time, I have a exam tomorrow. Fucking higher ed man) made this graph
Asking ChatGPT a question doesn’t take 1 hour like most of these… this is a very misleading graph
This is actually misleading in the other direction: ChatGPT is a particularly intensive model. You can run a GPT-4o class model on a consumer mid to high end GPU which would then use something in the ballpark of gaming in terms of environmental impact.
You can also run a cluster of 3090s or 4090s to train the model, which is what people do actually, in which case it’s still in the same range as gaming. (And more productive than 8 hours of WoW grind while chugging a warmed up Nutella glass as a drink).
Models like Google’s Gemma (NOT Gemini these are two completely different things) are insanely power efficient.
I didn’t even say which direction it was misleading, it’s just not really a valid comparison to compare a single invocation of an LLM with an unrelated continuous task.
You’re comparing Volume of Water with Flow Rate. Or if this was power, you’d be comparing Energy (Joules or kWh) with Power (Watts)
Maybe comparing asking ChatGPT a question to doing a Google search (before their AI results) would actually make sense. I’d also dispute those “downloading a file” and other bandwidth related numbers. Network transfers are insanely optimized at this point.
I can’t really provide any further insight without finding the damn paper again (academia is cooked) but Inference is famously low-cost, this is basically “average user damage to the environment” comparison, so for example if a user chats with ChatGPT they gobble less water comparatively than downloading 4K porn (at least according to this particular paper)
As with any science, statistics are varied and to actually analyze this with rigor we’d need to sit down and really go down deep and hard on the data. Which is more than I intended when I made a passing comment lol
What about training an AI?
According to https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.21015
The absolute most monstrous, energy guzzling model tested needed 10 MW of power to train.
Most models need less than that, and non-frontier models can even be trained on gaming hardware with comparatively little energy consumption.
That paper by the way says there is a 2.4x increase YoY for model training compute, BUT that paper doesn’t mention DeepSeek, which rocked the western AI world with comparatively little training cost (2.7 M GPU Hours in total)
Some companies offset their model training environmental damage with renewable and whatever bullshit, so the actual daily usage cost is more important than the huge cost at the start (Drop by drop is an ocean formed - Persian proverb)
Actually if you think about it AI might help climate change become an actual catastrophe.
It is already!
we’re rolling out renewables at like 100x the rate of ai electricity use, so no need to worry there
Yeah, at this rate we’ll be just fine. (As long as this is still the Reagan administration.)
yep the biggest worry isn’t AI, it’s India
https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/india-co2-emissions/
The west is lowering its co2 output while India is slurping up all the co2 we’re saving:
This doesn’t include China of course, the most egregious of the co2 emitters
AI is not even a tiny blip on that radar, especially as AI is in data centres and devices which runs on electricity so the more your country goes to renewables the less co2 impacting it is over time
Could you add the US to the graphs, as EU and West are hardly synonymous - even as it descends into Trumpgardia.
China has that massive rate because it manufactures for the US, the US itself is a huge polluter for military and luxury NOT manufacturing
Still the second largest CO2 emitter, so it’d make sense to put it on for the comparison.
I’ve been think about this for a while. Consider how quick LLM’s are.
If the amount of energy spent powering your device (without an LLM), is more than using an LLM, then it’s probably saving energy.
In all honesty, I’ve probably saved over 50 hours or more since I starred using it about 2 months ago.
Coding has become incredibly efficient, and I’m not suffering through search-engine hell any more.
Edit:
Lemmy users when someone uses AI: noooo, you can’t generate helpful answers to your questions which cost a tenth of a cent worth of electricity.
Also Lemmy users when they see someone consuming the electric power of an entire nuclear power plant just to play Doom The Dark Ages on their $20,000 PC: neat!
Just writing code uses almost no energy. Your PC should be clocking down when you’re not doing anything. 1GHz is plenty for text editing.
Does ChatGPT (or whatever LLM you use) reduce the number of times you hit build? Because that’s where all the electricity goes.
What kind of code are you writing that your CPU goes to sleep? If you follow any good practices like TDD, atomic commits, etc, and your code base is larger than hello world, your PC will be running at its peak quite a lot.
Example: linting on every commit + TDD. You’ll be making loads of commits every day, linting a decent code base will definitely push your CPU to 100% for a few seconds. Running tests, even with caches, will push CPU to 100% for a few minutes. Plus compilation for running the app, some apps take hours to compile.
In general, text editing is a small part of the developer workflow. Only junior devs spend a lot of time typing stuff.
Except that half the time I dont know what the fuck on doing. It’s normal for me to spend hours trying to figure out why a small config file isnt working.
That’s not just text editing, that’s browsing the internet, referring to YouTube videos, or wallowing in self-pity.
That was before I started using gpt.
It sounds like it does save you a lot of time then. I haven’t had the same experience, but I did all my learning to program before LLMs.
Personally I think the amount of power saved here is negligible, but it would actually be an interesting study to see just how much it is. It may or may not offset the power usage of the LLM, depending on how many questions you end up asking and such.
It doesn’t always get the answers right, and I have to re-feed its broken instructions back into itself to get the right scripts, but for someone with no official coding training, this saves me so much damn time.
Consider I’m juggling learning Linux starting from 4 years ago, along with python, rust, nixos, bash scripts, yaml scripts, etc.
It’s a LOT.
For what it’s worth, I dont just take the scripts and paste them in, I’m always trying to understand what the code does, so I can be less reliant as time goes on.
Are you using your PC less hours per day?
Yep, more time for doing home renovations.
We’re racing towards the Blackwall from Cyberpunk 2077…
Already there. The blackwall is AI-powered and Markov chains are most definitely an AI technique.
That’s irl cyberpunk ice. Absolutely love that for us.
Was waiting for someone to mention it. Hopefully it holds up and a whole-ass Blackwall doesn’t become necessary… but of course, it inevitably will happen. The corps will it so.
Nice one, but Cloudflare do it too.
The Arstechnica article in the OP is about 2 months newer than Cloudflare’s tool
